Into The fire podcast transcripts

Episode 1: Welcome to Into the fire

Yo, what's up guys? Welcome to the first ever episode of Forging Freedom into the Fire. I'm your host, Zach Monroe, and I am pumped you're here. Uh, this is another one of your boring self-help podcasts. Nothing against the self-help podcast community. There's some great advice. Uh, I've used a lot of it in different aspects of my life and it's really helped me. Um, I built this podcast and this company to really change that perspective and build a movement. Uh, Forge of Freedom, we're about real talk, real growth, and real brotherhood. You know, here's the deal. The Forge and Freedom is for men who want to get better, both in life, in mindset, and strength, and especially in their relationships with the people who matter. The forge part, it's about doing the work, sweating, failing, learning, and leveling up, dusting yourself off when things aren't always great, and picking yourself back up. Freedom part. It's what happens when you take control of your life, start living on your very own terms, especially with some solid brothers along for the ride. Been asked this question a lot lately. What's the mission? And I just say simple. You know, Forge of Freedom is about helping men grow, connect, and really crush life by bu while building a brotherhood that actually matters. Uh none of the fake stuff, just honest conversations, real stories, especially a little tough love when it's needed. excited to talk about the show, what you're going to get, and some of the exciting guests to bring on. Uh you're going to get stories from men who've been in the trenches and figured stuff out, and some guys who are still figuring stuff out as they go. Tips and hacks for building strength, confidence, and emotional resilience, and especially some some strong conversations about brotherhood, accountability, and how to show up for the men around you. Because we know none of us are winning solo at this. I want this to be fun, too, right? Life's serious enough already, but we don't always have to make it so serious. So, I would definitely expect a lot of laughs, some oh [ __ ] really moments, and a lot of straight talk about what it takes to be a man. Today, we're going to bring in guys from all walks of life. You know, I'm talking business, sports, outdoor adventure, whatever it is. You know, these are guys who've done the hard work and, you know, they're living free today. Sometimes it'll just be me sharing lessons that I've learned the hard way. And yes, there's definitely going to be some embarrassing moments, too. So, if you're ready to start forging for yourself, building your own freedom, and connecting with some solid brothers, I think you found yourself in the right place. Before we dive in, hit us up on all the social platforms, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, uh, Forgandfreedom. Get all your updates there. Uh, we also just launched our our website, forgeandfreedom.com. That's forged lettern nfreedom.com. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast. Uh I encourage you, please jump in on the conversation. Bring your story. Bring your questions. Uh also bring your wins and your fails. Uh because the reality is is that we're building this together. All right, enough talking. Let's kick things off by sharing why Forge and Freedom even exists, why I started this, and why I think every man can level up and live free, especially with some good brothers by his side. Right. So, let's go ahead dive right into it and start with the question that everybody asks, why the name Forge and Freedom. And here's the quick backstory. For years, I felt like I was checking boxes. I had a wonderful career. I've spent the last decade working as in in nonprofit leadership. You know, I've committed myself to social impact and change. I've been a part of instrumental success stories and in helping, you know, people and youth grow and develop. Um, I have a beautiful family. I've got a wife and two kids, you know, we love being outdoors. We love camping. We love adventure and travel. Um, you know, and we put a lot of time and energy into that. And then I've also been heavily involved in my community trying to give back where I can, you know, being involved in making, you know, where I live a better place for for people to want to live and and hopefully maybe move to as well, you know. But the reality was this. Um, inside I was still restless. you know, I was struggling to find, you know, what is my purpose? And, you know, I faced some challenges along the way, too. You know, I'd wake up, I'd hit the gym or I'd go for an early morning walk. Um, I'd be in these meetings, I hit deadlines, you know, but I was asking myself, where is my crew? Where was that tribe of guys who push each other to grow, who call out the BS, but can still crack a cold one when all the work's been done? You know, it really wasn't until after an early morning long hike in the aderondex chasing the sunrise where it hit me. Steel only gets strong when it's forged in heat and then hammered into shape. That's us, right? Men aren't meant to coast. We're meant to forge in real freedom. That's really when you've done the work and you're living on your own terms. So, that hike really became the spark and it's where forging freedom was born. you know, really out of the simple idea to help men sharpen themselves and build a brotherhood worth belonging to. Um, the mission for Forging Freedom, it's more than just a brand. It's more than just a podcast. You know, it's built around these three core values, right? First one being brotherhood. You know, a real network of men who show up for each other. There's no ego, no fake bravado, just guys who've got your back. Second one is growth. Whether it be in fitness, whether it be in mindset, leadership, faith, um business, fatherhood, whatever you need to level up, that's what we're going to tackle. And then the last one, and my favorite one, is adventure. You know, because the reality is that nothing bonds men together like dirt under their boots and a story to tell around a campfire later. You know, this isn't me preaching from a mountaintop. Uh I'm in the forge right here with you. you know, I'll share my wins, my screw-ups, and I'll bring in other men who've walked their own path. I'm excited to share what's coming. You know, u another piece of this this business is our our trips and our challenges. Um we recently launched our first uh Brotherhood Breakthrough Weekend that's coming up November 7th to the 9th of 2025. We have reserved an awesome lodge up in the Aderond Mountains. Uh we have a twoight, 3-day uh full itinerary uh with hiking challenges, with teamwork, with growth, um with building brotherhood, and you know, you can't forget um you know, what brings people together is really good food. Uh so that's coming up. You can check all out all the information on our website, forgeofreedom.com. And then uh we're working on the details for our second trip for the winter. We're looking at a uh a Brotherhood winter weekend again up in the Aderondex. Um you know, some of the details you expect on that. Another great lodge somewhere within proximity of White Face Mountain. You know, we're going to provide you again with your lodging, all your meals, um your lift tickets to White Face. Uh, if you're listening and you're like, "Man, that sounds awesome, but I've never, you know, hopped on a snowboard or skied before," that's fine because we're going to set you up with all everything that you need for your equipment rental packages or private lessons, whatever you want. Um, you know, your brother's got your back and that's what we're here for. So, keep an eye out um for all those upcoming trips and um you know, feel free to reach out if you have any questions, you know, and and here's the deal, you know, every trip is designed to push us a little more both physically, mentally, um but also give us the space to talk about stuff that actually matters. what you can expect here in the podcast. Each week, you're going to get conversations with guys who've really forged themselves, whether as athletes, entrepreneurs, dads, and just everyday guys who refuse to coast. And you're probably going to get some solo episodes where I break down lessons from the trail, uh my own personal fitness and journey, and then, you know, especially when situations where life uh when it punches you in the gut. uh you're going to get a few laughs, a few challenges, and hopefully a few oh man, I really needed to hear that uh today type moments. So, that's the story. That's the vision of Forge and Freedom. If you're a man who wants more than surface level friendships and checkbox living, uh you found yourself in the right place. So, don't forget to hit subscribe, follow Forge and Freedom on Instagram, Facebook, or wherever you hang out, and uh keep an eye out for the trip signups that are dropping soon. All right, that's a wrap for episode one. Hopefully I didn't sound too much like an idiot. You know, if this resonated with you, uh, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and, uh, you know, send it to a brother who could really use a kick in the pants today. Remember, life's about forging yourself, living free, and building a brotherhood that actually matters. Keep pushing, keep laughing, keep showing up. I'll catch you on the next episode. [Music]

[Music] Welcome to the Forge and Freedom podcast, Into the Fire. I'm your host, Zach Monroe. I am so excited. I have one of my best friends. I'm happy to call him someone that I love like a brother. I've known him for the better half of my life. And uh today I'm joined with uh one of my best friends, Adam Solar. I couldn't think of a better person to really kick off my first podcast episode that wasn't an introduction to the podcast other than this guy right here. And so I'm excited to get into some really deep conversation. And we're taking what we've been doing for probably the last 15 years that we've been friends and we're hitting the record button. and you're gonna get a glimpse into just some of the deep conversations that we get to have as friends. You know, him and I just went out on the boat Tuesday and we did some fishing and we spent about four or five hours out in the boat and you know, there were pockets of silence and then there were pockets of just really deep conversation. And so this conversation and this podcast and really this friendship is the foundation and the base of the mission of forging freedom and why I built what I did and because because of a friend like Adam and this this wonderful human being. I believe that everyone should have an atom in their life. So with that said, welcome to the Into the Fire podcast, Adam. I'm excited. Hello everyone. Very excited to be here. Like Zach said, you know, we had a great conversation the other day and I'm just excited to start this off and start talking about brothership and how to improve our our relationship and ourselves by just coming together and communicating, you know, our our beliefs and kind of airing out our relationship and hopes to come close together and help others come together. How do you feel about being the very first guest on the podcast? I'm pretty stoked about it. I'm glad you asked me to be the first guest. It's It's an honor. I'm, you know, like I said, I'm excited to see where this goes and to kind of come out of my own shell and talk about real things, real life challenges and obstacles that we've individually have over overcome and collectively have overcome and really how each other have been there in times of need. And you know it's our relationship hasn't been perfect. We've you know gone some time without really communicating too much. But the beautiful thing is that when we get together we you know we kick it off like like no time has passed at all. And really the main thing I think is we've been there for each other when we need. And I think we're just coming to a point in our life where we not only like respect and honor our relationship on a grander level, but I think we're at a point in our lives where we really feel the need to really dive into becoming better individuals. Uh we found that that's by becoming better friends, better brothers, by expressing each other of our difficulties and our accomplishments. Yeah, I think you hit on a really couple important things there. And I think the we've had gaps in our life where we just lost touch with each other. And it's like because we have very similar lives, right? We both have a wife, I've got two kids, you've got three beautiful little girls. And you know, as fathers and as you know, people who are trying to show up for those around them, we both have that same value in that, you know, we want to invest our time in our family cuz we know, you know, we've had many conversations about how you can't take time for granted because you can't go back, right? So, it's living in the moment. And so even though that we've been busy building our families and our lives through kind of this our 20s and 30s, I love the point that you made that when we do get a chance to catch up, it's like there was no gap ever there, right? And I I think that's what true brotherhood is. I think that's what forging freedom is about. It's about being able to have those those nons superficial relationships in your life and especially with with men who often go through isolation, right? Periods of whatever it may be where they don't have those same or they've lost touch with their friends, right? So, that's really what I love about it. And, you know, I appreciate you and so much I appreciate your family and you know, we have a history. So, you know, I kind of want to go back. Let's let's take it back a little bit. So, where where did this friendship begin? Do you remember? Yeah, I do actually. Very vividly. I guess I got to start off with one of our other old friends. We're football season and Zach's coming in and my friend's kind of messing with me. I'm one of the starting running backs and he's kind of giving me grief that this Zach Monroe kid's coming and he's really good. 's going to take your spa and just kind of like, you know, messing with me, ruffling up my feathers. And I I kind of was like, "Oh, yeah. We'll see." And so he he kind of got my ears perked up right out of the gate. And so the first time I met Zach is at a party. I walk in and I I I see this kid. I I don't know who it is. And I still haven't registered. the Zach Monroe that my other buddy was telling me about yet. And so we kind of it kind of hit it off right away and then he tells me his name and I kind of kind of was like, "Oh, so you're Zach, what I've been hearing of." And we we just kicked it off and sure enough we had our we had our battles out in the football field which obviously just kind of grew us together. you know, healthy competition. Iron sharpens iron. So, yeah, it was it was a quick getting to know each other after that party. I we we had we hit it off right right away and next thing you know, like the probably the next few days after, we're on the football field together. So, we got to learn each other fairly quickly. And as Zach knows, football is one of those places where your egos get checked. So whatever ego you want to bring, someone's going to going to check it. So it was it was good to have another hand in the pile to to check each other. And yeah, and going back a little bit to the isolation aspect of this, I think really it was needed. I think there's periods of time when we had to find like really learn ourselves and that time, you know, I think everybody goes through it to to really iron out and figure out kind of who you want to be and what you want to accomplish in life. And a lot of that sometimes takes silence and a little isolation to really like focus on what what direction you want to go. And the pretty awesome thing is that we found that we were both going in a similar direction during that time. And now that we get to that we've had conversations recently, we we see that we're on a similar path. And that's pretty cool. Yeah, that's a good point. So, uh, isolation, it's all how you frame it. Sometimes it's perspective. So, isolation can be good. So, for myself, and part of the reason I started Forging Freedom is because I was able to find small pockets of isolation, solo, backcountry tracks by myself, just just me and my thoughts, right? That's scary. That's scary sometimes. And I think because we live in this age of where phones really run our lives and technology and AI and whatever you want to talk about, we're so it's so easy to be distracted and not live in the moment. And so that type of isolation was really good. You know, it was good for me in a mental state. On the flip side of it, I've been on the other side of isolation, too. in its frame that you know I feel like I had been just invested everything was invested in in work and in family and like I wasn't carving out that time for myself in like trying to catch up like check in with you or check in with some of my friends and like you know then I found myself in some of that friendship isolation right and like as humans and especially as guys we have to have that really clear balance you know and we have to be able to reset ourselves sometimes too I I think I said it yesterday. What's the first thing they tell you when they're going through the safety protocol on a plane? Put your oxygen mask on before you put any before you help anybody else. 100%. Right. And that's so true if you if you think about it, you know, and especially if you if you put that into our perspective as fathers, it's like we have to still be able to find time in our busy lives to carve out to be able to reset, to be able to refocus, to to be with our friends in order to show up for our families, right? to come back feeling refreshed and renewed and energized and be the best version of yourself for your family, right? 100 completely agree. Yeah. I love this conversation. This is this is brotherhood. This is just kind of this is like a small portion of everything that we had talked about in Tuesday. By the way, Adam and I went out fishing Tuesday. It was like 78 degrees. It was beautiful. I don't remember the last time we had a midepptember where it was that nice. And you know, I I haven't I I used to fish a lot. Like that's some of my favorite memories with you is like we we've spent a lot of time out in the woods fishing. I mean, right back to our senior year. That summer when we graduated senior year, I I pretty much spent the whole spent the whole summer in the woods basically at the shack. And you know, and then there's so many times like we we started college, we started our adult lives, and like I moved away for a while before I came back home. And I remember there was a time in my 20s, you remember this one? The time in my mid20s, I just gotten in a out of a bad relationship breakup. I'd moved back home. I wasn't really in good place, right? And the first thing that I did was I reached out to you and you're like, "Hey, why don't you come down and we'll go we'll take the canoe out and we'll go on Deer River and we'll go try and catch some musky." Like that was the very first like thing that I did when I got home. And like for me that was a huge mental reset that day. I don't know if I ever told you how much I appreciate you doing that. There's been a lot of moments in my life where it's like I really appreciate you've been there and I hope that I've been able to do the same for you. But like that is going back to my mid20s. That was definitely one of my fondest memories being out there in the I don't think we caught anything. Maybe a walleye or two that day. But you know certainly didn't catch anything on Tuesday. You caught the biggest bass I've ever seen in my life. I mean that thing was eating all the fish in the St. Lawrence. I I have no idea. I I can certainly see why they call it one of the best bass fisheries in the northern hemisphere uh right now based based on that catch. But I mean, I caught nothing but, you know, couple snags and, you know, trying to fix my line for the first half hour. But, you know, hey, I had an awesome day. It was it was like, especially where I'm at in this season of my life right now, it was like the perfect moment to be out there with you, join the water, having really good conversation, you know, and even though we didn't catch anything, that that wasn't the whole purpose, right? The whole purpose was I mean, that's just a bonus. if we were to land a sturgeon or a musky or something. I mean, that's just the that's the icing on top. But like, you know, what a great experience. What a great day. Yeah, that's the benefit of fishing with friends is it's a really good time to communicate and catch up. Yeah, I had an awesome time. I've always had awesome time where we got together to to fish. And the appreciation is definitely mutual. I appreciate you and your family. appreciate all the moments we've had together, but I really appreciate you all always being there, even if you might even not even known it. I I've been through a lot because I've been dealing with illness for going on 14 years. And you've always been a ear that would listen and and reciprocate. And that reciprocation I I like really appreciate. And I'm I'm getting emotional a little bit over it because it's it's been a been a long time. And just having someone to to communicate some struggles and someone that would listen and just kind of just give

small amount of advice and and leave room for for me to vent other than kind of a judgment. It was huge. It was it was nice because I didn't I didn't get that from a lot of people and I I kind of clammed up and talk less and less about it and to less people, but you're always willing to at least try to understand and be there to to listen and yeah, I I truly appreciate that. And it's really, you know, just kind of built a more stable foundation for our friendship and from from, you know, from just Yeah. just being there. And again, I appreciate it and I appreciate you having me on this podcast and bringing me in for the first and it's it's nice to hear how much I I've meant to you. you kind of just you don't really I guess like really think about it in that way until someone like really expresses it and sometimes you don't even really realize the impact you make on others until it's expressed. So, man, I feel like we're off to a good start with this brotherhship and this and creating this brotherhood adventure to to do stuff like this and to hopefully inspire other men like us, you know, to call up their buddy and be like, "Hey, what's going on? What's up? Let's get together and have conversations cuz I think you You said it before, you know, life happens and we get so busy with ourselves and our families and and and you know it good for a good reason. Mhm. and we just sometimes forget to like pick our head up and kind of ask or uh reach out to our friend and kind of see what they're doing and and just by starting this off and realizing quickly how monumental it is just to just even for brief period of time of just being like, "Hey, what's up?" Like it can make a monumental impact physically, mentally, emotionally, and I'm excited to keep this going and continue to grow and hopefully inspire other men that it's okay to like really, you know, to reach out and to express each other's feelings cuz, you know, you hold it in. the other one might not truly understand like how much they actually care for you. And you know, it's it's big to to have more people, you know, there that in your corner and support you even if it may seem like just a small conversation or whatever, but it can be make monumental changes.

Yeah. So, I can't express how important it is to check in with your buddies, you know, and I think, and I'm not placing blame or creating excuses, but there's definitely this like societal or cultural shift around, and you can call it toxic masculinity or whatever you want to call it, but like we've made it difficult for guys to be like to to talk just communicate, I guess, maybe in general, about maybe their challenges. or their struggles or even share their wins sometimes. And you know, I I think part of this movement is to to hopefully change that, right? And it's not like, you know, and there's going to be people that maybe listen or look at this and like, "Oh, these are soft, touchy, feely guys with their emotions." And like, that's fine, dude. Like, if that's what you want to think, but like I'm sure people have have their struggles, have their things, too. And it's like, tell me how that helps you by just bottling all that up, right? And so, you know, and maybe it gets passed on from a generation to a generation. It's it's hard to say where it came from. You know, it doesn't really matter why because the reality is that it's happening. And and the reality that we're faced with is that men right now are are three times more likely to die by suicide. And I'm sure I'm not having looked at all the research, but I'm sure part of the problem is is the inability to feel comfortable or open to talk about whatever struggles are going on in their life. Yeah, I'd completely agree. I mean, you know, I I I really pride myself on that, too. And I'd probably still be that way if I wouldn't have had to like go through the fire and find out that that's just hasn't been working for me. And it just has been pushing me in a further further away from myself and others. But that's exactly what it was is all this kind of like suck it up and keep it in. And that's what I did. I mean, going back to like our football days and hockey sports, it worked for that. Masking injury and kind of cover up feelings and being superficial, being tough, and not really

opening up and honestly, not even really feel like needing to open up. Like, it was just a a natural thing. Or maybe it wasn't natural. is just how we're brought up and kind of groomed that way to believe it's a natural way to just freaking suck it up and not let it out. But man, I got to the point where

that, you know, who cares? It's better letting letting it out than uh breaking. and like talking you know that statistic on suicide like yeah that that that it it's alarming. It's alarming. And I'll tell you, so some of this was built and I' I've been reflecting. I had a conversation with with Paige this morning. And we had a friend uh die by suicide a little over a year ago. And you know, I think about where I was at in my season of life back in that June. And you know, I was I was in therapy at the time. You know, I was talking to a therapist and things were, you know, things were coming up from I guess maybe childhood or whatever is going on. And you know, and so I I was kind of in a rough season of my life then too. And I I'd actually spoken with him a few days before it happened. And so you know, I think like it's so easy especially for like you mentioned. So it's easy to go through this period and you tell yourself like I can suck it up. I can deal with an injury. Like I can do this. Like that's fine. You can do that. But it doesn't mean that you're not going to sit in it and struggle with it, right? And that can be dangerous. I think it can be really dangerous. And especially because what happens is you learn to like craft like a management strategy of how to deal with it and that never really resolves the problem, right? Actually, I think it creates long-term damage, right? You learn how to not be your authentic self. You learn how to fake being happy or you learn how to, you know, whatever that case may be. You know, if you're someone like me, a lot of my life, I was a people pleaser. And, you know, I wanted to do right by everybody. And that's not always the best strategy. You know, as I've reflected on a lot of, you know, my life too, like I try to be a good human and live by a set of morals and values, you know, that were instilled with me through especially people like my grandfather and other mentors in my life. And

it's I don't know I I lost my train of thought there where I was going with that authentic authenticity. Yeah, there we go. Authenticity like that's I mean a key word and you honestly lose it when when you start burying yourself and your feelings and you're right like it's it's it's not beneficial to you or anyone else cuz you know it might be it might work at the time might be a temporary band-aid but it it it comes up in other ways and it it rears its ugly head down on the stretch. And you know, and it's it's pretty it's pretty powerful when you start letting go and you feel more authentic and you start becoming the person that you truly want to be. When you start just being honest and open. Because a lot of times you may think like, man, you know, why is this happen to me and this sucks and like I and then you find out like the next per the person like no one can relate to me. But then you kind of find out that you know the the friend next to you that's close to you absolutely understands. And and it just started with with you opening up and to realize like, oh wow, [ __ ] like I'm not I'm not alone with this pain. And you you find it to be very soothing, you know? I guess misery loves company, right? Yeah. But but then it it just it begins the process of of a greater understanding of uh yourself and others and the growth that comes from that. And like you said it before like this a lot of guys may listen to this and be like you know this is too mushy gushy for me and emotional. And if that's you, then you know, you might have a a long a long trip ahead of you for for the time coming until you realize that it is okay to to be yourself and to let go and to express your your pain and sorrows. And you know, it's it's not weakness at all. It's honestly strength. And once you realize that, it's it's it's infectious. And even before this conversation, I've been feeling that that way. But, you know, just talking about it now and this creating this brotherhood like it just reaffirms it and kind of putting it out there. Yeah. on the waves. Mhm. Really is a whole different level. And honestly, as we're speaking, like we're both putting our Let's just just be very clear for everyone listening, we're both out of our comfort zone in this and so part of that is practicing what we preach, right? So it's like and I'm okay with that because we have both, you know, together. We've both matured and grown and so we've been able to watch each other's journey on that. And this is really kind of the evolution and the evidence of that. And uh for for me, you know, I I think that it was definitely it was eye opening and kind of a revelation to realize that like, you know, I look like this maybe rugged guy that goes in the backount camping and doing all this stuff and like this guy that steps up and is heavily involved as community and doing all this stuff, you know, but it's like and I look really, you know, I I I tried to for a long time much a lot of periods of my life, you know, I was just trying to be the best in every situation and show up for everyone that I possibly could and I'll continue to do that. But it's like I still forget that I was carving that out, that time out that I needed for myself, too, right, to take care of myself. And so that's all coming back full circle. And then I get, you know, I start talking to some of these other guys and they're like, man, that that really makes sense. And it's like it's so easy to get caught up in the rat race, right? And to realize that you're not the only guy sitting in that right in that that feeling or emotion. And then being able to come and create a podcast and talk about it and then try to rally other people to like, hey, come out with us to the woods and let's go freaking cook over an open fire and go hike and just push each other and build friendships, right? And have conversations like this, right? Because you got to give people a platform sometimes, too, and an opportunity. You know, I've I've spent the last 10 years in in leadership and you know, I've I've learned a lot about people, right? The good, the bad, the weaknesses, the strengths, and how to like coordinate that, right? And everybody has different personalities. Everyone has different characteristics. And you know, it's like how do you bring people along? And so I've always like in my own personal life I've always tried to emulate

maybe not emulate I've always tried to lead by example right so I think in this in my last few job working nonprofit is a whole different beast also by the way if you're looking to get rich don't work in nonprofit unless you're like me and have so much humanity in like emotional resilience and want to really change, you know, and help people, that's what you get paid in. You don't get paid in cash. Well, you do, but it's you're not going to get rich working nonprofits. So, you got to really want to change people's lives and really help people. And so, you know, that was a season of my life I think that was awesome. I look back on and what I'm doing now, I'm going to continue to do that. I'm just doing it with my own path and with people like you along by my side, you know, and that that's another thing, too. It's like in this growth and in this journey, I've realized that you can't be afraid to ask for help. I think guys struggle with that sometimes. I know I I was a I'm a prime example. I would struggle to ask for help, right? I'm like, I got this. You know, I could take care of it. I'm supposed to. Society says I'm supposed to. I'm a guy, right? You know, I guess maybe that goes hand in hand with the the suck it up, like do it, but like no, like we always need help. Like every one of us sometimes needs help, right? And so that is that's not a sign of weakness. I'm I hate to break to you. You were right. I agree. That's a strength. The minute you can start asking for help, it's like you have just now grown as a man in my opinion. Yeah, I agree. And you know, I'm another prime example. It's probably reason why this is kind of my health issues have lingered on so long is cuz I had a very hard time asking for help. Also, just communicating my struggle. I spent a lot of time just masking it, trying to make the most of it and try to believe and make it look like it wasn't there.

But yeah, like I said before, how do you feel today? Like how you feeling right now? I I feel I feel enlightened. I've come a long ways because because of it. I've had to really push the boundaries of what I believe and honestly like me coming on this podcast and talking about it. Well, first off, like I wouldn't be sitting here on a, you know, just telling everybody about kind of my struggles without a podcast like this about brotherhood and not only re, you know, rekindling or reconnecting, but a path of making new relationships with other men and expand that, for other ship to to search for others that can relate to content like this and you know things that we've been talking about and

something like this you know it it's it's therapeutic. I I would imagine that you you probably would think the same kind of it's it's kind of like I mean let's just be clear neither one of us are licensed mental health counselors. So this this is not medical advice or you know this is just us in like this brotherhood conversation. I I consider in myself in my own opinion kind of like this inter alternative therapy, right? It's like to be able to just casually have a conversation. There's no there's no bright white lights. There's no leather couch. There's no Zoom. You know what I mean? It's like taking important conversation and then mix mixing it with comfortability, right? To some degree, someone that you're comfortable with, a friend, right? Or an activity or doing something, right? For us, like Tuesday was fishing with whoever joins this movement, Forging Freedom. It could be hiking. It could be hanging out at the lodge. what whatever it is that you find, right? I do think there's so much value in these types of conversations. And I'm and I can just I'm speaking from my own experience. You know, I was in therapy. I think there were parts of therapy for me that might have been damaging or maybe I just didn't go far enough. I mean, there were things that also helped too, right? But nothing has helped me more than what we're doing right now. I mean, right now we got a microphone in front of our face, but the years that we've spent with these conversations outside of the microphone, right, that that has done more for me personally than than really anything. Yeah, absolutely. I would say like ditto on that. And you know, it's just the beginning and obviously there's a lot that people don't know about us, but we're just two real real dudes just trying to be real, you know, be authentic and push each other out of our comfort zones and be better versions of each other. And I think that's going to be contagious. I think there's going to be a lot of men out there that are looking to to bond and have real talk and real relationships. And like don't get us wrong, I don't think we're, you know, we're on here to like we're not Yeah. Like you said, we're not therapists or trying to help anyone. And we're just I guess that's the passive thing that we're we're attempting to do by by release by communicating our own struggles. But you know it's so much further beyond struggle too. It's that you know we want to have good time, good relationships and push each other to improve. And I guess uh what what about sharing wins, right? Like who who's who's that who's that circle that rallies around you when you've got something really successful that you just accomplished or some really big win or you know who who's that person that comes to you and is like you know lifting you up and like supporting you and like you know being your cheerle like that's got to be a group of guys that starts with that. I mean, cuz everyone's got different dynamics, family dynamics or whatever it may be. But it's like I think a big piece is also being able to celebrate the and much as much as being able to talk about, you know, any any any supports you may need or struggles you've got going on, celebrating wins is huge. 100%. Yeah. I mean, small group of friends that are there to, you know, congratulate, pat you on the back, and but I I guess really, I mean, I don't know if there's been enough of that, and I don't know if I've been there enough for others, for wins. I think there's, you know, that's a that's a a good a good point and I I agree with that. I I feel the same way. I feel like I could have been better. You know, that's part of that's part of that maturity, right? It's like recognizing that humanity, too. Like, you know, win's a win. We don't want, you know, we're not going to sit here and it's like be humble and don't boast about it. And it's almost like don't even give yourself a moment of credit. It's just like it is, you know.

So kind of like falls on yourself, I guess. But I mean, just thinking about it now, like it's it's best to really, you know, not obviously like really just go on about it, but like to take a moment and take that in and celebrate your wins and accept and what you've done. Being humble is huge, right? and like being able to be humble in what you're doing and and then it, you know, sits quiet, but it's important that we

that we share each other's successes as guys. I Yeah, I agree. We support each other in that because on the flip side, when things suck, you're in the [ __ ] It's like it's easy in those moments sometimes to just like really sit in those moments, right? And it's like that sometimes maybe is the only thing that's that's going on in your head or whatever the case may be. And so be able to pick yourself up. It's like you have to have that support system of guys and and whoever and then just guys, right? Your family and friends and everybody, co-workers, whoever to really pick you up and and be part of that part of that system. But yeah, what a what a great Why do you think I had a really good question for you. I'm trying to think of it. Why do you think it's so difficult

for guys to open up? I think we touched on it a little bit. Our culture, I think we're from a young age, fear of getting picked on, right? Yeah. being called soft, right? Or whatever. Yeah. that and just I mean

and I guess it depends on what kind of demographic you're from or what your who your parents were but I feel like a lot of my friends you know it's you know fathers or other male figures you know just in their day too it's just it was even more common to that suck it up and you know that don't really cry or whine about it. No one wants to hear it like and and I believe there's an absolute place for that 100%. I think that there is a healthy level of that and I continue to have that. But I think to be aware of of I guess checking yourself and having I guess another friend or friends or family members to kind of check you on that healthy I I don't know where that line is drawn and a balance. There's definitely a balance and even if it's pushed, you know, over that line to where it's kind of in a lot of ways it's in your face disrespectful a little bit. Might seem, but kind of getting through that and still finding a way to vent or express yourself in a way that doesn't come off as like, you know, oh, poor me. But being like open to like subjective criticism is important. But pe people struggle well I think there's an art I don't think there's an art but I find that constructive criticism there's an art to the communication of criticism right there's many things that go into it but it could be tone it could be you know what whatever the case may be but being able to receive it is huge. being able to receive constructive criticism and not take it as a personal attack. And so I think about our friendship and I think about things, you know, we've talked in different situations in in our lives, right? And the authentic part to that friendship is that we're you're not afraid to call me out on some [ __ ] right? And it's not out of a place of like it's a place of hey, you know, is that right? you know, or you know, have you have you thought everything through or whatever the case may be. The authentic friendships are are just that. It's not being afraid to call out the [ __ ] right? It's and it comes from a place of love. It comes from a place of like compassion and care and like, you know, you should challenge each other. We we as people, as a society, and and at the end of the day, you call me out on that [ __ ] and I'll be like, you know what, Adam was right. Damn, he was right. And then like caused me to think, you know, or

that's I don't know. It's easy to tell people what they want to hear this day and age, right? Absolut. Yeah, absolutely. Especially with social media, it's easy for people to to put on a persona of whatever they want. that or or be just so like uh superficial or

indirect honest and true to themselves or you know well the I'm kind of talking about the other flip side of that too just being so disconnected from them where you just give them the superficial like like I think what we just talked about It was the way you should be handled with balance and kind of going carefully about calling someone out in a way that doesn't cut. And then I guess the other side of that that superficialness of really not listening to the person and just giving them that, you know, that toxic masculinity thing like just suck it up. Mhm. that cold hard like cut where there you didn't really like with take in what the person was trying to say. It was just like I don't want to hear it. Just don't be a you know don't be a pansy about it. Like it's an it's an attack on me. It's attack on my character. It's like no like you got to you got to take a minute and listen I I'm I'm preaching the choir here. I've I've been in this many times and it's one of those, you know, when you become self-aware or you're working towards growing, you have to really think about your your strengths and your weaknesses, right? And for a period of time, I was like, man, I I'm not good at taking criticism. I'm not I'm not good at being wrong. I struggle with that, right? And and I'm still and I'm still working on it. But that's being aware of it and like understanding that it is is a tough realization to come to. It's like, dude, you're not always right. Mhm. It's like you get you got to figure that out. And so today, you know, fast forward to who I am today and I'm like somebody says something like before I would instantly jump to an attack and I'd go on the defensive, right? And now I'm like, okay, I can own my [ __ ] You know what I mean? Like I'm I'm in this new season of life and it's like I I can own that. And you know, maybe I was wrong. I apologize. Being able to apologize. I think that's another piece. [ __ ] we could sit here and talk all day about that. But being able to just accept, you know, when you make mistakes, apologizing and, you know, cuz we're human. Everyone's human. Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone, you know, says things that they they might not truly mean or whatever the case be. And being able to accept that and being able to apologize is huge. It's an art certainly. Mhm. And you know I've you know similar aspects have struggled with that also and I want to say I'm better at it now but yeah there's definitely it's definitely a ongoing

and like definitely it's ongoing kind of build building like who you are is like the the only way to finally to truly find yourself is to, you know, be able to take constructive criticism and and being wrong. Cuz I mean, yeah, I feel like most of the time, you know, especially when you think you're right, like mo when you're when you're most Yeah. When you're usually most, you know, certain that you're right, it's Yeah. most likely you're wrong. So, yeah. to to just stomp your fist on the table and be like, "No, I'm right." And not even take the criticism. Yeah. It's It's also Yeah. not a good approach to self-improvement. No. No. I gosh, my my my oldest kid, my daughter, we are we're working with this with her right now. She's like, and and you know, Paige and I, we we kind of laugh and sometimes pull her hair out, right, because we're parents with kids. But, you know, she's like in this she's in this well, she's becoming she's going to be 10 next month. And it's like I see like how I was as a kid, like I see it kind of coming through. It's funny how genetics and like DNA work. It's like the different little quirks that your kids get from, you know, either the mother or the father. But she's definitely got that, right? maybe attached to some of the the short temper, but God love her. She is freaking she's funny. But yeah, so that's like one of those things like I'm trying to work and like sit down and have like eye to eye conversations. And so this is this has been really fun to do. So since we started school with the kids, you know, I've just been working on this podcast or well for free and the whole the whole company as as a whole. So, it's been really great for me because I get to get the kid well, I've always gotten the kids up and ready for school in the morning, then I take them to school, then I would usually go to work. So, I'm I'm still doing that, but I'm also able to pick them up at the end of the day, too. That was something I didn't have the the luxury of doing before. And uh so, it's nice to get that time back, but we've been doing this little like we call them daily challenges. And so, when I before I drop the kids off, I'm like, I want you to do something nice for someone today. And then when I pick you up today, I want you to tell me what it was that you did. And so they look forward to it. Like when I pick them up every day, like they jump in the car, drop their book bags, and like it's kind of a race to see who can tell me like what what it was that they did, whether it was, you know, I complimented someone's shoes or I helped somebody, you know, at lunch or something like that. I've really challenged them to to do that. And since I started doing that, I' i've started to see kind of some of that personality with, you know, with my daughter who we're kind of going with some of those struggles with. And and I think a lot of kids do, too. But it's it's funny to see how that improvement has gone, right? And so I started them doing I started doing that with them and then I'm like, wait, why am I not doing that for myself? You know, like I walk into Stewart's get a coffee every day. Like, well, I think we talked about it on the way up here when we're driving here. I was like, it's sometimes tough to do because well, everyone's got their head buried in a phone, but when when they're not, it's like why why am I not trying to make somebody else's day by doing something nice or saying something nice or helping somebody, right? So, and then at the end of the day, I've been kind of thinking about it like what did I do today? And in the past like, you know, two weeks, there's been a couple days where I I kind of didn't do anything. And I'm like, I tried to show myself grace. Like, okay, I'm going to do it tomorrow. Maybe I'm going to do two things tomorrow, right? And then I reflect on it at the end of the night. It's like it's a good feeling. Yeah. Different. And that's something that's kind of been interesting and something that I've been working on. But, you know, everyone has different different techniques and different strategies of uh of you know, what helps them in their own self-improvement. You got anything like that? Yeah, it's just that's a a great idea with the kids. And I was kind of chuckling, you know, about your daughter reflecting, you know, a bit of your yourself and cuz I have I'm a father of three and yeah, it's it's funny. You want to learn a lot about yourself, you just have to have children that just have a couple kids. You watch them and you see yourself in them and just like, oh man. Uh-huh. But uh do you think it's true what they say about how um you I'm trying to think how it's worded

basically like saying you're going to get paid back, right? Your kids are going to pay you back for everything that you did as a as a kid, right? So all the chaos that you might have caused or the troubles you caused your parents, like your kids are going to pay it back to you or something. Do you think that's true? Uh yeah, I guess in a way to a degree maybe. It comes back around, I guess. And then also it like shows kind of sympathy for them and yourself that you know it you you kind of see kind of the things that that you did when you're a child that you might have not you know known until like you see it directly from your your child. Yep. And uh it's it's it's it's one of those humbling experiences. And then you got Can you give me can you give me an example, man? You probably got plenty. Yeah, maybe too many just cuz like it's just kind of reeling around my head. I don't know which one to kind of, you know, put out there. But and knowing your daughters too, it's like you got three awesome daughters and they each have their own they each have their own personality and quirks. Like I I could probably between the three of them like I could see bits and pieces of both you and Kha in like each one of them. It's funny. Oh yeah. Same with my kids. We're like school. It's like you know I'll catch one of my daughters like you know who needs school or whatever and just like oh I could remember when I was that age and I almost want to be like yeah I completely agree with you and then but as a father and a father I'm like no. Yeah you need school. It's the it's the learning that matters. You know, you might not like what you're learning, but the aspect of learning is the value. So, I can care less if you don't like, you know, conservation class she's in. She she's like, uh, I don't really want to learn about trees. I'm like, I honestly don't care, you know, if you want to learn about it or not, but the fact that the the value is you're learning, you know, to to learn how to learn is the value there. So like even if you don't enjoy what you're learning, there is a aspect there that it's going to benefit you. And not only that, but you know, like I I don't know how many times when I was in school, I couldn't I I barely made it through school. If it wasn't for sports, I wouldn't have made it through school. And I could see myself saying that. So, like, I kind of chuckle inside. But as a father, you know, there's so many things that you didn't think you enjoy learning and then next thing you know, you're like, "Oh, wow. I have actually, you know, some want to learn more about this. It's like I didn't see that coming. So, you know, just communicating with your child to be like just be open and learn. Yeah. Yeah. Especially as a father, too. I think if you can if you can emulate, you know, like what we're doing right now, if you can emulate that with your kids and give them the ability to to have that their own emotional space, too. Mhm. Right? Like if you lead by example, I think that's huge. You know, I I heard it on a podcast actually, but I love what was said. It was allowing your kids to to communicate, get on their level, and explain to them like all behaviors. So, if let's say they're upset about something, it's like all all feelings and emotions are welcome. All behaviors are not, right? And that's that's super important. And I it was like uh Paige and I talk about this and we're like aha that's that's a really great statement. It's like all feelings and emotions are welcome. All behaviors are not you know. Yeah. It's like you want to stay up till midnight on a school night, you know, and you're upset about it. It's you're okay to feel upset about it. You're okay to be pissed off at me as your parent about it, but it's not okay to, you know, but it's your responsibility or proper way. Yeah. Exactly. like learning them learning how to manage that too. You know, I will say so schools have taken a pretty big approach in that step. You know, I I don't remember when we were in so many so long ago, but you know, helping kids build that emotional stability, the managing of emotions, like there's a lot of programs and like partners that that come into the schools now to help kids work on that. And I think that's great. You know, I hope that it puts kids in the future generation maybe in kind of a different boat, you know, and you can already start to see that change. So, I'll give you a quick story. So, I walked the John Story Trail. I've been doing this for the last 3 weeks. Walked the John Story Trail every morning and of course it loops by the high school there in Msina and the kids were out a couple days ago and the high school students and they were riding with chalk on the John Story Trail and I didn't really pay much attention to I saw like a hopscotch or something like that and I did my second lap and I started looking down. Actually, I got a video of it and I started looking. It's like they were writing things of like mental wellness and like support. It's like you are enough, right? Like keep going. It's worth it. Like like they were like writing these like words like that. Those are things when we're in high school like and these are guy like there's a kid out there with his football jersey on you know he's out there like writing this stuff and I'm like it's cool to see that generation really get a grip on it really have a have an understanding. Absolutely right where we didn't always have it. Well I think I mean cuz the problem is so glaring now. How many kids have anxiety and depression and have thoughts of suicide? Yeah. And that number continues to grow. And I think as a society, we're finally like, okay, you think that we've hit that actually take care of like that inner talk, you know, that I can't like get that, you know, that's it's not that you can't, it's that you can't yet or, you know, get that kind of language out of there like, you know, like you said, those keep going, you can do it. you're, you know, you're you're a master or something like those phrases. Like we I just went to

home the my god when you go to school

first day when parents go to school, meet teachers, open house. Open house. Wow. Curriculum night, whatever. Everyone calls it something different. Open house. So, like kind of goes on what you're saying, there's just they had all like these negative phrases on one side of the board and then they had an other side of the board was all these positive phrases and the question on top was which one's right and like it they're I see she's only in first grade and they're already kind of working on that of what you kind of Hey, these here are some phrases if you're saying these things. The funny thing is at the top says which one's right. And the question you might think is, you know, obviously the positive ones are the right ones or the way way you want. But both of them are right. Like whatever you're saying to yourself, like if you're on that negative side, like that's what you're going to be. That's what you're going to get. That's what you're going to receive. Yeah, you're on the positive side and saying positive thing. That's what you're going to get. That's what you're going to receive. You feed your mind, you feed your mind those positive, right? So much and it's good from a self point, but you know what we're doing here, it's like we if you got a brotherhood and you got other people doing it, too. It's like doing it yourself is probably the most important piece, but then having other people do it with you, it's like damn, we're like building we're like building each other up, right? The norm now. Like it's so much easier to It's it's been really cool and especially because we have daughters, right? So, this is this is something I've been noticing especially lately. It's like women are there's been this really big like women's empowerment movement which I think is fantastic. I think it's great to watch women support each other support each other women in like building each other up in like doing this. But it's like why haven't guys been like why haven't guys been doing this for each other too, right? Like you might do it between you and your spouse or you know maybe one close friend but it's like we've seen the success story with women right it's we've seen it boost women into you know leadership roles and improve their lives and their relationships and by having that support system and group themselves too and I think that's awesome and I'm excited that my daughter gets to be a part of that that culture and your daughters but what we're doing here forging freedom I have a son, right? And it's like I want this to also be there for him too, right? To have that same system and maybe something that was different than, you know, when we were younger. Yeah. And I I completely agree. You know, I I love to see the women empowering women and men empowering women and men empowering women. Yeah, that's a great point. a healthy dose of it. And you're you're right, there's not as much influence to do that with men. And I guess the easy answer is be, you know, most people think, you know, men have it easier, you know, get the top jobs or this or that, but in all reality, like it it's not that easy to be a man and to have that kind of support group and that kind of like vibe like is important. And I think it kind of leaves a gap that Forge and Freedom can, you know, help fill and others, you know, out there can help fill proper ma masculinity and like empowering men to be, you know, themselves. And I think there's a big area for that. And you're right. Like, so I got to start wrapping this up a little bit, but I have one question I want to ask you. Why do you think it's so difficult for guys to I've read an article on this recently. I can't remember the the the synopsis of it right now, but I do know that it had to do with like men in their between the age of 30 and 50. They have a hard time to to create new friendships. Why do you think that is? Why is it so difficult for guys to to to make like real authentic friendships after let's say 30? Yeah, I think you can go throughout this podcast and uh pick everything. I think we covered a bit of it. I kind of guess like quick summary of it like

first off our you know how we're brought up and how we're you know kind of told to to suppress it I think is a is probably key the biggest one and that kind of makes us isolated and doesn't want us to reach out to other guys cuz I guess there there's that measuring stick you know cuz you you don't want want to really be authentic. So, you want to be like the man everyone thinks you should be that like stoic, you know, know all and support all and have no weaknesses. the warrior. the that the warrior the manly man grizzly just you know nothing bothers you and show no emotion kind of thing like but that that like I don't think why can't you have both why can't you do both you know and I think some of the greatest people in in in society today really have both of those characteristics people that can really show that traditional male grit Right. And that that classic perception of what a what a man or a father in society should be. And then also being able to balance that and say, "But guess what? I also go see my therapist once a week or something." You know what I mean? Or, you know, or my wife and I sit down and we have a really deep conversation or I call my buddy every Tuesday. I'm like, "Hey, how you doing, brother? Is everything good?" Right? So, it's like those those are that balance is so important. I I I absolutely think you have them both. Like I agree that's the way to go. And I guess what I was trying to say is that we talked about earlier the isolation. Like it's so easy to fall into your own zone and not and like not like I guess care like want anyone else's opinion. You're just like

kind of just I guess pushing away others. you're just which isn't the way you want to go about it cuz it it kind of leads to everything you know anxiety and depression and stuff but but I guess that's where I would say it makes it harder to find other friends and like other things that we talked about we have families all the energy that we do have we you know we poured into our work so we don't have a lot of energy and want, I guess, to really like go out there and look for new relationships that, you know, could push you outside of your own beliefs and thoughts. Like, we're so like centered around and like want comfort and kind of routine. So, we don't want anything to like manipulate or move that. So it's like because it's a it's a delicate balance to find friends because you have to align with them. And I think with like this division that we see a lot today like there's this fear of coming into like friendships that are like toxic and just bring bring out like the worst in you. Like it just doesn't mix. We're all We're already like trying so hard to make ends work. We don't need anyone competing with I guess our idealism. M and yeah, but I mean that's why I guess it's like and just thinking about it cuz the podcast and what you have going on here with bringing improving brotherhood and growing brotherhood and expanding that like has like really got me thinking about like how much good that can come from that rather than the negative. like what am what am I missing, you know? And that is that camaraderity of of men and and helping find out like who you are and who others around and just expanding that horizon to really like just improve with yourself. Sure. and just be a better, you know, well, first uh friend, you know, husband, father, son, like I think coworker. I think our relationships with other men are extremely important and I think that we need to change that lens and fi figure out ways of that's like a good question to to try to figure out the answer because I think we're better off if we come together and find similarity rather than differences and I think we'd be healthier and more prosperous if if we do so. And um yeah, and like I once you told me about this idea, I just instantly was like, "Yeah, that's something that I would be very intrigued by and you asked me to be involved and you know, it was it was easy." So, I think there's a lot of guys out there that have similar thought that and hopefully come to the point where they're like, "Yeah, I need more man friendship and bond." Yeah. And uh and also, so you you just you just described what Forge and Freedom was built on, the whole idea, the concept, why we exist, right? and and I I really wanted to take my experience working with nonprofit and then my goals of building something kind of on my own as well and you know and using and you know hopefully growing this and expanding getting more people involved in this whole process and growing it together as a brotherhood as a community as a movement but everything was built on kind of that right there what you had just mentioned you know and also it's a throw of humor in the fact that a lot of guys in groups, whether you guys plan, you know, you got a group of friends and you maybe go on a golf trip every year, you do something. Guys as a collective are not great planners. So part of it was like, hey, maybe if I could take the leg work out and, you know, basically just plan everything and say, "Okay, listen. Here's how much it's going to cost. Here's when we're going. Here's when you got to show up. Here's what we're doing." Right? So that way we're not just eating a bag of potato chips and uh beef jerky all weekend. like, you know, right down to the coordinated meals, you know, like like good solid food. I love to cook for one and I love really good food and I love to bring that to the table with with a bunch of new people. And you know, as much as I've I've built this with this purpose and this vision and this mission, some of it some and I'm going to sound a little selfish here, but some of it is for me, too. It's like to help myself grow, you know, and I expect to get just as much out of this as other people that I'm working with and trying to to to build this with, right? So, I'm at that point where where I can accept that that it's okay for me to to want to do this for myself because because I got people who depend on me and, you know, if I'm taking care of myself, I can take care of them, too. you know, just like you you got to do stuff that's that's gonna build you up and you know, if if you got to do if you do this, right, and it's like you benefit from it by getting new friends, getting that camaraderie, right? And and maybe it takes a weekend away, but you come back twice the person that you were before you left. You're in a better mental state. You're re-energized. You've got the stuff like everybody benefits from that. And not just like your close, not just your kids and your wife and your family, but maybe it's your community, you know, maybe it's your job. So, it's your business that gets impacted cuz you've come back with this, you know, renewed sense of brotherhood, this renewed sense of purpose, this renewed vision for yourself, like this maybe you maybe you set some goals on one of these weekends, you know? So, I appreciate having you on today. I appreciate you joining me. You know, it's I like I said in the beginning, I could not have thought of a better person to really kickstart this podcast than you because, you know, a lot of our friendship through the years, especially the growth and maturity and the journey that we've been on together is evidence that this type of stuff works, right? and like shoot if it's working for you and I and I'm not saying that we got it all figured out because we don't. We're still learning as we go and we're still figuring things out. But we both know that we have grown through this and it's like man if we can spread this and help other people and show them the way and bring it in and rally the community and it's like why not do that, you know? Absolutely. And yeah, I appreciate you having me on. And I'll close by saying that, you know, you've already have accomplished what you wanted to send out with cuz you've inspired me. I think this has been truly inspirational and and beneficial. And you know, I did not think that I was going to get emotional a little bit on this. just talking talking about our relationship kind of came out of nowhere. But that's cool, though. I mean, look at that. You know, there's the the value already. And I think I'm going to walk away from this podcast just feeling better about myself and being a man and being a a brother and understanding how much I truly mean to, you know, you and I can't ask for much more than that. So again, thank you for having me on and hopefully we can do this again sometime. Love you, brother. Love you. Okay, so before uh we wrap up this episode, I want to talk about a few things upcoming with Forge and Freedom. Uh the first one was yesterday we launched our uh Brotherhood Breakthrough Giveaway. So if you follow us, follow the Forge and Freedom Facebook Instagram page. Forge letter N freedom. We're encouraging you to like, follow, and then tag through your buddies uh who could benefit through a episode of this podcast or a weekend up in the Aderondex or in the mountains, whatever we end up doing. We got a ski trip planned for February. So, we're going to give away a deadline is Saturday, October 4th by noon to like, follow our page, tag three people, and we're going to give away to one person our brother, our Breakthrough Brotherhood weekend, which is now set for November 7th to the 9th. It's a Friday to a Sunday. And we have a full itinerary listed on our website. We have this really beautiful lodge we're calling base camp, but don't get too comfortable. It's got a pool table. got a hot tub, things to reset, but there's going to be some challenges. We're going to push each other. We're going to get outside and then we're going to come together and, you know, enjoy some of the amenities and especially the camp camp fire conversations. And uh so that's coming up November 7th to the 9th. Cost for that is $650. We're giving one of those away. It's on sale right now until October 29th and then it's going up to 800. All this money that we're putting in, all the money that we're raising right now for these trips is covering basically the cost to do this. And then everything else is being poured poured into moving this this company and moving this movement forward and growing its reach. So that's really the plan with this. And so if that sounds interesting you, check us out on our website www.forgefreedom.com.

So that's forgenfreedom.com.

You can find out about all of our upcoming trips including our also newly launched side quests which are you know not every adventure takes a weekend. So what we're doing is putting together daily activi or you know not daily activities every single day but day trips right. So the first one we've got planned is coming up right at peak foliage. It is Sunday October 5th. We're taking eight people up to Big Slide Mountain to catch the sunrise. Did it a few years ago. One of my favorite sunrises. I'm bringing the coffee. I'm bringing the breakfast sandwiches. It's going to be epic views. It's going to be peak foliage. I am so excited to get back up there. Definitely one of my favorite hikes and uh beautiful views over the Great Range. And so I'm excited to do that. We also have the we've launched the date for our Brotherhood Breakthrough winter weekend. And so that's going to be a ski and snowboard trip up at White Face Mountain. Again, we're going to find another lodge within close proximity. All your lift tickets, your lodging, your meals, everything's going to be taken care of through Forge and Freedom. And so again, like we talked about earlier, you know, the idea is to be able to coordate that all for everybody and say, "Hey, listen. This is how much it costs. Here's when you show up, right? This is what we're doing. Everything's laid out already. take the take the guess work out of it. So, Adam, I know you you're gonna play and join us on one or two of these two, right? Yeah, I'm excited. Good. Good. We're excited to have you. So, all right. Listen, that's a wrap for our second episode. It was It's been a lot of fun. Yeah, absolutely. It's been a lot of fun. So, uh thanks for joining us today on this conversation. Hopefully, you took something away and'll join us on the ne next episode. If this conversation, this podcast episode resonated with you, send it to a brother who could use a kick in the pants today. So, keep pushing, keep laughing, keep showing up. We'll see you on the next episode.

[Music]

Welcome to Forging Freedom into the Fire, the podcast where men sharpen themselves and build brotherhood. I'm Zach Monroe, your host, and every week we dig into real stories, gritty adventures, and the mindset it takes to live free and lead strong. Pull up a chair by the fire and let's dive in. [Music]

There's my sink. Boom. Okay, let the fun begin. Cheers. I'll drink some coffee to that. Cheers. All right. Welcome to another episode of Into the Fire. I'm your host, Zach Monroe. Uh, today I'm joined with someone who I have had the pleasure of being acquainted with the last couple years through a nonprofit program I used to work with. His name is Len Mackey. He has his own business called Ancient Earth Skills. He's based out of Potsam, New York, right here. And so I've had the pleasure of seeing Len in action from doing the African drum circle to the uh teaching youth how to build fires to a little bit of everything. And I'm excited to have him on today because Len really just has this wonderful energy about him. And he has this unique personality and he just he has this way about him that you just feel connected and you want to just learn more. you want to learn his story and you want to learn about his experiences and really his his views and inputs and so we're excited to have him on on as the second episode guest for Into the Fire. So, welcome Len. Hey, thanks man. Super happy to be here and you know when I went to the car to get the tripod and all that stuff for the camera, my friend BB just said, "Hey, man. I want to come, too." So, this is BB. He's a sweet little buck that I called with my voice a few years ago. You know, using grunts and bleeds, you know, mating calls for white tailed deer. Okay. Orus Virginiaas borealis. That'd be like the northeastern subspecies of white tail. And so he came in really curious and gave me and everybody a big gift. So yeah, super thankful that BB could be here, too. Yeah. Well, welcome B. We're excited to have him. So what what a better place than w with a podcast about adventure through brotherhood, right? And so I think hunting is one of those activities where a lot of men have found brotherhood through hunting partners and family and and so on and so forth. Oh yeah, my dad, you know, that's really what got me into it. You know, from the time I could walk, I was in the woods with him, you know, hunting and trapping and tracking animals and, you know, trapping beaver. you know, he had my he taught me how to skin my first deer when I was about 7 years old. You know, I was like so careful. I didn't want to nick the hide, you know, and he made me buy my own traps when I was seven, you know, so that I would have my own stuff to work with and taught me a lot about, you know, taking care of things and and so, you know, and also being in the woods, you know, for him, you know, that was dad's church. like he was baptized Catholic, went Protestant, then he's like, "Nah, I feel closest to God or whatever it's called when I'm in the woods, you know, and that was really his happy place and his solace, you know, and that's really what he shared with me, you know, from the time I was just a wee booger, you know, many mornings early in the boat on the pond and, you know, stalking deer or, you know, trekking through the swamps, you know, just a A lot of fun. A lot of fun. And uh yeah, for me now, that's like my happy place. You know, hunting is my sacred time. It's my time to go in the woods and just be and listen to the birds and try not to piss them off, you know. Try not to annoy the red squirrels so that I don't get busted. Yeah. And then the deer are like, "hm, who's over there?" That's funny. So, we uh my wife and I, we took our two kids hiking yesterday afternoon. And uh we went up to Big Crow Mountain, which is just on the other side of Keen in the Hurricane Wilderness Forest area. And we're hiking up and of course you hear the crow, right? And so I'm like, I need some good folklore here to tell my kids. And they're like, and so we're hiking and I'm just trying to keep them occupied and not fight with each other. So I'm like, you guys know the story of Big Crow, how it got its name, right? They're like, no, how? And I'm like, Big Crow? cuz there's a big crow that lives on this mountain and the legend says that if it lands in front of you and you look in its eyes, you've got seven years of bad luck. Oh no. And they were like, "Oh no." So they were looking around like for the crow. But it was it was cool because it was one of those hiking activities that keep them engaged, but they were also like looking for the crow. They're like, "Don't look. Don't look him in the eyes." My daughter's like, "What happens if he lands in front of you?" I'm like, "Look away. Close your eyes." And it was so funny. And it's like what a great experience to be outdoors on a beautiful fall day and just have this like wonderful memory and like I'm sure when my daughter's 18 or looking back she's going to be like, "Dad, that was so ridiculous and now I'm afraid of crows." I'm like, "No, just that one." Yeah. There's a lot of different stories about, you know, wildlife and how they came to be the way they are, you know, and there's different stories across cultures. You know, some have to do with like the turkey vulture or the raven, you know, and they have similar stories about those birds. You know, one one of my favorite stories is a story of the raven. You know, the people of the earth had, you know, their fire went out. You know, they had no fire. So they had no way to, you know, warm their water and make their medicinal tea or cook their food or, you know, no hearth to gather around, nothing to to warm their bones or, you know, their life, their shelters. And and they were in trouble, you know. So the birds were like, "Oh, you know, these these humans need some help, you know, so what are we going to do?" And so the birds got together and they're like, "Okay, well, you know, if we if we, you know, fly as high as we can up up to the sun and grab a piece of the fire of the sun and bring it down to the people, then, you know, we could help them." And, you know, so different birds volunteered. The eagle's like, "Well, I I soar high in the sky and, you know, I have powerful wings that will bring me up to the sun and maybe I can get a piece of the sun, you know." So, the eagle flew up as high as he could, flew and flew and flew and almost got there and his feathers were burned to ash white. So, his head was modeled white. When he returned, you know, he bore that the the heat. And so the other birds are like, "Well, you know, maybe I could do it, you know." So the hummingbird tried and flew as high as he could to get a little piece of the sun, flying as fast as he could and bringing it down to the people, but he just couldn't get high enough and close enough. And so the raven stepped up and said, "Well, I will do it. You know, I I will try, you know, I will do this for my people." And the raven at that time, you know, as the story goes, you know, he had rainbow feathers and a beautiful melodic voice, you know, and so Raven said, "Okay, I will get the fire for my people." And so Raven flew and flew and flew as high as he could and hotter and hotter and hotter until finally he got as close to the sun as he possibly could. And he gets one piece, one bite of that fire and brings it down in a smoking spiral all the way down to the earth. He came and he brought the fire to the people and put it in their their teepee fire structure and and warm their shelter so they could cook their food and make their medicine and gather together and tell stories and share life and love by the fire. And so it was his free will to make that choice, you know, for his people and to bring that fire to them. And as a result, his feathers were burned black, charred, and his voice is now more like a squawk. Then the beautiful melody he once sang, but still when you look at their feathers in the sun just right, you see that rainbow and the magic that he still carries. And so that's that's a wonderful story and I've definitely told it done better renditions of that. But the the point being, you know, like what what do we do for our people? What do we do? What does our heart tell us to do? you know, and that's really what keeps me going back into the woods and keeps me hunting and keeps me following, you know, the path of the deer and listening to the birds and, you know, I, you know, the news is pretty bad. It makes me pretty sad or mad or angry or I feel helpless or, you know, any number of emotions. And, you know, so I much prefer to get my news from the birds, you know. And they'll tell me a lot about how I feel in that time. You know, if I go into the woods angry or upset, they'll they'll fly away. Watch out, he's coming. You know, but if I'm calm and relaxed and you know, as you said before we we started the podcast, like I am free of time right now. you know, I don't have the pressure of that that one single line, single pathway rush, you know, that is so unnerving to the wildlife, you know. So, when I can tap into that space of no time, destination, then I'm free to wander and and find that peace and walk with that, you know. And so I think that's that's why I hunt and that's why I'm in the woods and that's why I do what I do because somewhere it makes my heart happy, you know, like teaching drumming to the kids and getting them dancing and expressing themselves and out of their comfort zone. you know, they're not gonna hurt themselves, but they might be a little scared to step up and do a little dance, you know, but it makes them stronger for it, and they're more confident and and more inspired and empowered to be themsself and to enjoy their life and celebrate life, you know. So, I I think that's great. And you know that what a wonderful sample of Len Mackey. And so you have this art of storytelling that I think is really captivating and I've always uh appreciated that about you and the way that you can tell that and share that with people and in my experience it's been with kids and watch their reactions and it's you know it's in a way that it's engaging and it it causes them to question things right and so you've spent you would you say most of your life in the woods and I'm just kind of curious to hear from you like what what has the woods taught you? What has the outdoors and living this this life of wild and foraging and hunting really taught you? Yeah, a lot of love and respect for the earth. Especially, you know, growing up my family, all our vacations, all our family vacations cuz we didn't have tons of money were camping trips, you know. So we would spend a week or two or eventually my grandmother took us camping and every year we would go a little bit longer at this campsite, Blake McNeel. And so my whole childhood was spent outdoors in the summer, you know, forging berries and fishing and playing in the woods, you know. And so for me, it's just like really taught me an an appreciation

for the simple things in life and the little things. And you know, just watching, you know, a worm crawl across the mud and leave a track there that's so much like that wandering river. you know that that mud is bedded in. You know, it's like, wow, this is amazing. Life is happening. Just to see, you know, the the toads that are hatching and then the perch that are coming up and feeding on the toads and, you know, just life and energy transforming, you know, life and death and and just the evolution of of energy, you know, it's taught me so much about that. just, you know, in taking a deer's life, you know, it's it's hard, man. It's never easy. It's always painful. You know, it always it always hurts a little bit because, you know, there have been times where I lived off grid and, you know, I'd only see like the plow truck or the mailman or the farmer. And so, you know, the animals were as much or more so my neighbors than people because I would see them more often, you know, and, you know, so to kill a deer that I see regularly and that I'm familiar with, you know, it it just hits a place like, wow, that's my neighbor, you know. Um, I had a dream one time and it was really powerful. It really hit me so hard. You know, I've been working on hunting turkeys, you know, and getting really close to them. My goal actually is to touch a turkey cuz it's way harder to touch a turkey than to shoot one with a gun or, you know, I've been using a Oage orange stick bow and getting really close. Still haven't taken a shot yet. Had opportunities. Let them pass by. You know, it's a game of how close can I get to the turkeys. That's what I've been playing, you know. But I know one day when it feels like the right moment, I will either touch that bird or or harvest one with my bow. You know, it's a goal, a life goal. And I'm getting close. I'm learning a lot from my failures. But I had this dream one time that I was hunting, you know, and I fired my arrow at this turkey and I when it turned because the fan it turned and its fan was had it, you know, it was had its back to me. So, I shot through the fan right through the back of the bird. And when the bird turned around, it was a teenage boy.

Man, that's heavy. It hit me hard. That's heavy. It hit me so hard, man. No, because that's that's what he is. You know, if I were to shoe a Jake, that'd be a juvenile male turkey. Mhm. A malagraas called the povu sylvestrus, right? Our our north or eastern wild turkey. That would be a a juvenile, a teenager, you know, and that was the dream. And so, yeah, it hit me pretty hard.

And I feel like, you know, that's kind of part of it is, you know, having that respect for the animals and that's and the earth and being a caretaker of the earth as much as I can. You know, like when I'm harvesting trees for a bow, you know, maybe I would harvest the trees that have overgrown an apple. Like where I was living before at Birdsfoot Farm, there was a bunch of black locusts that are beautiful trees, very hard wood, make they're very rotistant. They make good bows. And they were shading this apple. So I said, "Okay, for this bow wood, I'm going to harvest these locusts and give this apple some more light." So then there's more apples for the deer, there's more apples for the people, there's more apples for everyone, you know. So that's another thing that

being in nature you know has taught me as as a human as our species being a human you know this lifetime or whatever you believe you know right now here I am a human you know what is my job it's not just to take from nature but to to take care of her you know in 1491 I don't know if you ever read that book excellent read you know it's about the time before Europeans came to North America. And at that time, there was actually more protein being produced on the continent by nature from the buffalo and the fish and the other wildlife like, you know, the car pigeon flocks of billions of birds, you know, and you know, fish. So you could catch a tonnage of fish into a tributary in one of the tributaries to like Lake Champlain, you know, in like an afternoon, you know, because the native people tended the earth, you know, so they would say plant bo or nettle or encourage the the native and wild species that that were edible and that were medicinal and that, you know, would feed not only themselves but also So the wildlife, you know, and so nature nature teaches me a lot about a lot about myself, you know, a lot about how I feel that day, you know, if the birds the birds are sensitive, the squirrels are sensitive. If I move too quickly or hurriedly or nervously, you know, they feel the pressure of that and they're like, "Whoa, why is this guy moving here? He's in my space. What's going on? You know, so so I can learn a lot about Len by being in the woods, you know. And it's definitely a huge part of my life because of the gifts it gives to me, you know, not just in the form of like food and, you know, friendship and kinship, getting to know the deer. Like one time I was living in this cabin in Old Decal on a dead end dirt road and you know at the time I was playing music for the modern dance here at Sunni Potam for their theater department. So I would go home and I would practice music every night you know and I would sit on the porch. It was screened in porch thank god cuz it was on the edge of like the 23 mile Beaver Creek wetland. You step outside at night it's like mosquitoes picking you up. It was like the Twilight Zone, you know. Hey, I live in Louisville, so Louisville is known as the swamp, so it's no different out there than than than Beaver. Yeah. Yeah. So, thank God for the screened in porch, but I would sit out there and play every night and sing and play the balophone, you know, West African style mima or xylophone. And one night I was practicing and I went in to to cook dinner, you know, I was cooking some eggs and lots of garlic to keep the mosquitoes away, you know. And when I went in, this coyote started to sing like right the cabin was up on a little hill maybe 15 yards from the road and the coyote in the dark was there in the road singing and I was like whoa he is close. I couldn't believe it and I was just like wow. And he sang and he sang and he sang and he sang and Zach he sang to me for like over a half an hour right there. It's incredible. And I was like, "What is going on?" I'm like, "This is amazing. Wow. What a huge gift." You know, and so I was like, "Well, I want to sing with him." So go,

[Music] you know. Yeah. And uh he shut right up and I was like, "Oh [ __ ] I did not mean to do that." And I was like, "Oh man, you were in the wrong pitch." Yeah. Was like, "Oh no." And yeah, but anyways, a few minutes later he started singing again, but only this time he was out in the field probably like judging from the sound, it was pitch black, but he was probably 80 to 100 yards out in the field. And he continued to sing and he sang for over an hour to me that night. He serenated me and I was just like, "Whoa, man. This is amazing. How is that even possible?" You know, and you know, animals are sensitive. Dogs are sensitive. You know, all creatures, humans, right? But especially the animals that are relying on their instincts more than like their analytical mind to solve their problems, you know, or to dictate their life or, you know, their habits of feeding or reproducing or whatever, you know, and so maybe he could feel the my vibes and he didn't feel threatened. And you know, at least that is my wish, you know. Yeah. Yeah, I remember one time I was running with a dog on that farm, this sweet dog, Sammy. He was a sheep dog. And you know, we were talking about how, you know, grandfather Stock talking wolf said, "Everyone and everything are my teachers." You know like every person, every deer, every bird, every blade of grass or the dew or the river or the wind or the sun or you know can leave an impression on our heart in our mind you know and can convey some meaning to us you know that may be important to our life you know and so I tried you know adopt that philosophy that everyone has something to teach me you know and Sammy taught me a lot. You know, the poor guy, he was, you know, had the instinct to herd sheep, but the farmers didn't have time to train him. So, every time he'd get off, he would go and rip the ass end out of one of the sheep, which is not very good, you know. I mean, he never seriously injured any of them, but he definitely tore a lot of hair, and it was not the sheep were not happy. Neither was the farmer. So, he would get locked up again, and as soon as he'd get off, he'd go and do the same thing. It was like he was angry, you know, and frustrated, you know, like any youth that doesn't have something better to do, like myself as a kid, you know, like throwing rocks at abandoned cars instead of like carving a bow drill kit or learning drum or dance, you know, like I was one of those kids that was bored and needed something better to do, you know? And so anyways, I would take Sammy off the chain and he would run with me and his leash was such that he would run in front of me. So he couldn't see me, you know, he his eyes and stuff were in front and he couldn't even see me out of the periphery of his vision. So I'd be running with him, Zach, and he would know when I wanted to go right, when I wanted to go left, when I wanted to go straight through the fence. Like in the instant that I had the thought, he knew. And I was like, "What is going on here?" I mean, like, this is incredible. Really? Is this really happening? And I'm observing it. I'm like, "Holy cow, this is this is really happening." Even the point where we came to this one spot and I was like, "Do I go right or left or what?" And Sammy was like, like, "What are you doing? Make up your mind, dude. Are we running?" You know, let's go. You know, and it was incredible. It was absolutely incredible. Instinct is incredible. So I I have a border collie great Pyrenees and so obviously her instinct is to also herd but she's never you know we don't have sheep or anything like that but I do have two little kids so for the last 10 years that has been herd. It's been fun to watch my kids just take off running and then to watch her come up on the right side of them and nudge them to the left to basically hurt my kids. So, it's like it's it's cool to see that she still gets to utilize some of that instinct even though it's not natural instinct for the purpose that it's doing. She's getting to utilize some of that, but she does the same thing. So, I I love to take her hiking with us. And she is very instinctful in that she she can see the path, right? She she knows it. She sees it very well. She's It's amazing to watch dogs hike. I don't know if you've ever been hiking with a dog before, but it's like they they can make split-second decisions of where they're going to step. Most I'm not going to generalize and say that all dogs do, but for the most part it can sense really aware the natural path even a herd herd path. Yeah. You know, and I think that, you know, even us domesticated humans still contain all of the instincts that our ancestors relied upon, you know, and I think that's one thing that, you know, being in the woods has really taught me a lot, too, is that, you know, the more quiet my mind is, you know, the more more sensitive I can be. Mhm. You know, and so being in nature definitely helps me sometimes. Like I've, you know, see if you can just bring that mic over just a little bit. Yeah. Picks it up a little bit clear. I do programs for for uh for students and kids and all ages. And I remember like just kind of like getting to the the spot and I was doing a tracking workshop for the aderondac semester at St. Lawrence University. And so there's this big sand pit. It's like the biggest, most wonderful tracking box. I mean, you can see all kinds of stuff. Turkey and raven tracks. And you can see the little bowls of where the grouse have dusted their feathers and the other little birds have dusted their feathers or where a bobcat sprang into the bush trying to catch a bird or something like that. or where the coyotes have gone through or where a couple laid their blanket down and had an afternoon picnic, you know, and it's pretty fun. So, anyways, before that happens, I usually hide somewhere in the landscape, you know, and and I remember laying down and my heart was like jump cuz I'm like getting camoed in and, you know, don't want to be seen and also like, okay, they're going to be here in 10 minutes. And even though I've taught these things so many times, I still get like excited, anxious, not like scared, but like, you know, butterfly nerves, you know, before I teach or before I speak. It's always present, you know, every time. And so I'm laying there and I finally get everything like all settled in and I'm laying on the ground and my heart is like boom boom boom boom boom and I'm like sweating and I'm like wow that maybe I did that a little fast a little hurried you know and so sitting close to nature you know I was there maybe 15 minutes 10 minutes and then finally like my heart rate settled down everything calmed and relaxed and you know I was like okay there. Boom. Now I feel more settled, more relaxed. So nature really teaches me how to relax too. Do you do you strike me as someone who might study or do like breathing techniques? Is that something you're familiar with? Like a buddy of mine recently put me on to the Wimhof breathing techniques which is done by Navy Seals to help them be able to be clearminded to be calm especially in like moments where they need to make split-second decisions and be clear in their mind in their decision-m and under stress under high levels of stress. So I've been practicing that. I'm still very early in. I'm maybe two weeks, but it is incredible how much your breathing helps your body and your mind just kind of relax and just find this focus of clarity. M I never realized like I said I'm learning all these new skills and techniques and it's great to connect with all these different people because this is the stuff that I'm learning and it's like I I might not have ever thought about breathing techniques in the past where now it's like I'm just being open-minded and I'm trying that and I'm like this is incredible. Mhm. So do do you have anything like you do breathing techniques? You know, I've heard of Wimhof and I've done it a couple times with a friend and I was like, "Wow, this feels amazing." And it's definitely on my bucket list. I've done other kinds of breathing exercises like studying yoga for a long time since I was a teenager, you know, and you know the benefits of just a deep belly breath like if you watch the way a baby breathes or you know an animal, a pro alete, someone who lives still primitively in the woods, like their belly is what's moving, not their upper chest, upper chest, you know, that's our fight orflight response, you know, and it's almost like we're trained from moving to so fast in our modern day to stop, breathe, and breathe into our belly, you know, and remember, and it takes training to kind of retrain that mechanism. Yeah. You know, and they they teach they teach a breath at the tracker school, you know, called breath to surrender where you breathe in, you hold the breath

and you let it out really slow and let it wash down through you like a wave. You know, I feel it from my head to my toes, like a wave down my spine. and you surrender all thought, expectation, time, destination, emotion, words, you know, all bits of tension. And it's a way to just completely clear your mind even just for an instant. Mhm. And you know, it's it's a great way if you're in nature, you need to make a decision, your emotions are like busy, you know, how to just stop and completely reset. And it's like pushing a button like you know pulling that trigger that pushing that trigger flipping that switch of

it's one of those basic hunting skills here. Yeah. It's you have to be able to take that deep breath before you take your shot. So you're still you're calm. Yeah. Right. Your sight's focused. Yeah. It's very very it's essential. Yeah. And you know then you can do different types of breathing for different exercises or for different purposes you can do different exercises you know yeah like breath of fire is a good one in yoga they call it skull polishing breath you know like it it oxygenates your brain so it's going to like refresh you know it's going to oxygenate your cells it changes your blood chemistry just by breathing you know I uh I have a fitness this online course called the couch potato to wild critter. Mhm. And it teaches people that's the first thing is breathing. Like breath is number one. So breathing into your belly, you know, the lower half of your lungs, you actually have 2/3 more surface area. So you have 2/3 more energy for life, for your respiration, that inspiration, you know, to help make some perspiration if you're working out, you know, or whatever you're doing. And you know, that breathing, you know, we're basically like a steam engine. We're burning energy. We're like, we have a fire inside us all the time, you know, and every fire needs fuel and oxygen. Mhm. and and the warmth, right, to get going. So we have the warmth and so we feed it the fuel and the oxygen and then we can control our body temperature or you know things like that and help us enter a different state of mind. You know, if you breathe with a belly breath, you can be if you're busy in the brain, you're stressed. Like when I'm stressed, I try to remember to breathe deep. And it will it slows her brain waves down, you know, from like the beta chatter box like, "Oh my god, how am I going to pay the bill?" Or, "Last week I [ __ ] up." Or, "Oh, I wish I hadn't said that." Or, "Dang, you know, I would have done that different." you know, or oh, what about this coming up? You know, the future, the past, all of those different things, regrets or fears, you know, little anxieties. And so if we breathe, we can we can just be like, okay, just breathe. And eventually the deeper we breathe, the more fully we breathe, the quieter the mind gets and the more relaxed we become, you know. And so just by focusing on that breath, like if that's all we did and put our conscious attention on it, it would lower our brain waves and put us into a meditative state. And it doesn't take very long for you to h for anyone to be able to do that if they're breathing the right way, you know, and you know, it can bring us from that beta down into the alpha state, which if we're in nature for a minimum of like 3 days, 4 days, we naturally start to sink our brain waves into that alpha frequency. So my feeling is that that really is our baseline frequency. and that the beta is the fight or flight, but it's a more become more of the modern baseline of stress, you know, and so just being in nature, you're an alpha. And then, you know, if you can relax deeper, quiet your mind even more, you could even be in theta. You know, that's like when we repair our bodies when we sleep, we replenish our neurotransmitters, we have our dreams, you know, we're in that state. And then even delta, you know, that's like zero thought, you know, that's like our deepest dreamless sleep. And so they've hooked shamans or medicine men, medicine women's brains up to electronraph to detect their brain wave frequencies. And they found that when they're doing their work, they're in delta. They're in zero thought. So, but they're awake. And so, like any kind of electrical channel, the less, you know, static there is in the line, the clearer the radio signal is for receiving and for broadcasting, you know. So, being in nature and and dealing with ancient kinds of technologies helped me to relax my mind. And you know, my goal is to be in that relaxed, lucid state. You know, that doesn't mean that I'm like not stressed about, oh, I got to fix the car or, you know, this or that or, you know, little things that come up, you know, but there's a lot of balance that goes into it, right? So, it's we live in this modern world and it's easy to be distracted, right? So your phone might be dinging every 2 minutes or you know turn that thing off. Yeah, turn it off. Unless I'm waiting expecting someone an important call. I'm like it's on quiet mode. Yeah, because it's so easy with technology and just modern society right now to to be easily distracted. And so I I've been reflecting a lot on myself and I'm someone who is for for a long time was very tech driven, right? I I worked in an office. I worked on a PC. You know, my phone was tethered to me because it was my work, it was my social, it was everything. But this last year or so, I've I've actually been free and clear of social media. I've been practicing when I got home from work, putting my phone on the counter and trying to leave it there, right? And not being distracted because I needed it for work or I needed it for connection or my calendar, whatever the case may be. And so I've I've really been practicing that in the last year and let me tell you how clear I have been in my mind is incredible. The less noise I've been picking up from you know dramatic Facebook posts or the polarization in our society in politics or you know whatever it is. It's like I've just been free and clear of a lot of that. like you, the news. I used to love to wake up in the morning and watch the news and like I still like to try and understand what's going on in the world, but like I don't thirst for it anymore. I thirst for this connection connection and conversations and just like authentic like you know discovery and learning new things like that's one of the things that has helped me and and I love to share that I'm not you know I don't make any recommendations that's something that I like to do and it's helped me but it's like hey listen if you can try bits and pieces everybody's going to find something different that helps them and so you know, if you know, I was talking to a buddy who was in a similar situation. He felt the same way. His life was very similar. His career was very similar and he's like, "How did you do that?" And I said, "You just have to really push yourself, right? You have to you have to get that muscle memory." And you it only takes, you know, three or four times of doing something repeatedly before you start to really pick up that practice or that habit, right? And so that practice of just coming home, taking my phone out of my pocket and putting it on the counter, right? Or just completely deleting your your account. Now, I'm back active today, but it's for a sole purpose. And it's not a social purpose. It's to share what I'm doing here and that's it. To help people to help people. I just want to share what I'm doing with Forge of Freedom in these types of conversations and connecting people to to hopefully join our brotherhood and in this community we're building. And so that's really my only purpose of it. Outside of that, I really have no interest in in in what's going on. I'm more interested in these real authentic connections. And so it's been incredible. And and nature is a part of that for me, too. You know, I think that I've also learned so much from being outdoors much like you actually. So you me mentioned Blake McNeel Campground. I actually grew up camping there myself. Yeah. Riding bikes and fishing and swimming. Oh, what a wonderful, so fun. It is such, if you've never camped at Blake McNeel, you should definitely look it up next camping season or even a nice fall. I don't know if they're still open. I don't know when they close, but just an incredible remote place. And I I appreciated those experiences as a kid growing up there and and in different places, too. So, I used to go to up into the aderon next to my grandfather fly fishing. Oh, fun. And so, you know, part of some of these conversations that I like to have, it's like some of these pure authentic conversations came from those moments. Probably like you and your father in the woods hunting or tracking. Oh, yeah. You learned so much in just those outdoorbased activities than you can with this sitting in front of us, right? Or Yeah. And that's another thing you know that you know nature teaches me a lot too is not to be too one-pointed focused but to have a peripheral perspective you know in in life in the way I walk and the way I move you know if we focus in here you know our our mind our consciousness is limited to this sphere of awareness you know maybe only a few feet from our face you know may be closer, right? But as soon as we're out here in like this kind of this they call the soft vision of the samurai, you know, or owl eyes or splatter vision or wide angle vision or soft vision, you know, that's a way to relax the mind, quiet the mind, you know, and and I think like that's that's the distraction of the phone is like it's so focused on all the little problems or the stress or the dramatic post or the, you know, somebody wanting to get you to listen to them for whatever reason, you know, and it could be a good reason, you know. So, and it's can be challenging to filter those things out, you know, and definitely one of my favorite ways is just put that there for now. Like I use that now for like video and to check on my people and, you know, try and encourage people to tan deer hides and, you know, make fire and and stuff like that, you know. Definitely. It's a powerful tool. Can be a powerful tool. Can be the biggest distraction. You know, like my teacher Tom Brown Jr., you know, dad was the first one to really introduce me to the woods. You know, my father Dennis Mackey and then I started doing sweat lodges when I was about 19. The local fellow Joe Longore who had learned from Tom Brown Jr. who had learned from grandfather Stocking Wolf, uh, the Lip and Apache scout and a medicine man. And, you know, that connected me so deeply to the earth. And, you know, and Tom, you know, Tom, I later went to tracker school and spent, you know, all every last dime and penny traveling there and learning as much as I could there and also at Root School in Vermont and St. Croy studying earth skills there, survival skills in in Bise, studying jungle survival skills, you know, in California and up in British Columbia, teaching skills and stuff. and just trying to learn as much as I can everywhere, you know. And so Tom, you know, just to kind of loop back around to Yeah. you know, the the original thought, you know, trail there, the the tracks we were just following, you know, he would say that in any situation or in a survival situation and really in any situation, you know, the mind can be our biggest detriment, our biggest enemy or our greatest tool, you know. And you know, he was named the tracker, nicknamed the tracker. Tom Brown Jr. was nicknamed the tracker because I think by the time he was 16, he had cracked his 600 like tracking case. Like he found hundreds of people from the time he was, you know, single digits. He started tracking people and he would find, you know, the lost hunter dead sitting on the log with his rifle in his full winter gear from shock and, you know, the paralysis of that and, you know, hypothermia. Mhm. Because the mind would just be like, "Oh my god, I'm lost." And I've been lost before. That panic is real, man. you know, it's like, holy [ __ ] it just washed over me, you know, and I got to sit down, quiet myself, and be like, okay, no, actually I know which way I is this way, and I'm not lost. And you know and he would find often the lost children would be like buried in a pile of leaves or you know and they would have done whatever they needed to satisfy their needs to get warmer or you know drink the water or eat the berries or you know they wouldn't hesitate to crawl in the pile if they were cold. You know they would just instinctively do that so their mind wouldn't interfere. you know it would be a tool of that of that life and you know preserving that life and maintaining that life. Yeah, it's an interesting thing. So the phone, the modern technology, the mind, they can go both ways, you know, and definitely the more distracted I am, like the the less happy I am, I think, sometimes, you know, cuz I'm like, "Oh, that thing that I have no control over is so sad or that it's so frustrating or, you know, whatever." And so I'd like to go back real quick because you you made a really good point about how the mind can be this powerful tool but can also be basically your enemy too, right? And so one of the things that I'm trying to cover too in some of the questions we're trying to answer is what does it mean to be a man in today's society? I'm actually following this guy right now. He's on this journey cross country. His name is Jason Doyle and he's walking 3,000 miles from Long Beach, California to Long Beach, New York, searching for the answers to this question. And and who know there's probably no right answer to it, but there's got to be some relevance and some some theme to it, I believe. And and so one of the things I think about is it's kind of been this quiet problem for men in today's society. And you know, I think I covered in the last podcast with my buddy Adam, some of it has to do maybe with toxic masculinity or today's culture of, you know, just suck it up or whatever it may be. But it's like, where does that mentality that you just mentioned kind of tie into all of that? How does it tie into being a man? Yeah. Like our mind and how we deal with it. Yeah. Yeah. You know that that is a good question that I you know definitely on some level relate to every single day. You know, I know when, you know, when I get sucked into distractions, you know, it's easy to do, you know, that's when I feel like less of a man. Mhm. You know, I'm like, what am I really doing with my time? You know, what am I doing with my energy? Mhm. You know, I'm not a child. You know, I love to play and always I'm I will always be a child. You know, like Grandma Isis, you know, I looked after her the last four years of her life and rented from her and helped her out. And you know, she was like, "Oh, the kids are coming over today." And I'm like, "Oh, who's that?" And it's like, "Oh, Marvin and Jean or whatever." And they're both 73, 75 years old. I'm like, "Oh, we're all a bunch of kids." You know? So, I think maintaining that childlike attitude is essential, but the childish behavior is maybe the difference, you know, and and it can be hard to break habits, you know. I think habits of addiction, you know, be it to the porn or the the phone or the movie or the the sugar or the you fast cars or the power trip or the whatever it is, you know, our brains are in some capacity designed to seek that good feeling, you know. So for me like using my mind to create the good feeling and pursuing that good feeling and doing the things that make me feel not just good in the moment but that will that have a longer term thing. You know I think that's that's a big part of it. And there was something else that is just coming to mind now.

Yeah. You know,

doing the things that like for me engage my mind, you know, like a breath or twisting some cordage or tanning a hide, you know, there's a story of maybe you've heard the story the demon in the curly hair. Have you heard the story? I don't think so. Okay, so this is a really good one. Please tell me. I first heard it from my buddy Joe Long Shore, you know, the fellow I was doing a lot of sweats with. And so it's like this. There's this farmer and you know, he's aging and his farm is in disrepair. You know, he can't keep up with with everything. And you know he's so this one day he's you know on his way to the well and to get water and there at the well is a wizard and you know the wizard is smoking his herbs and drinking from the spring and the the farmer goes to fill his buckets and the the wizard looks at him and he's like oh you look like your back is a little worn my friend. He's like, "Yes, you know, I work hard every day and I feel like I can never keep up with everything, you know." And so he's like, "Well, you know, I could you could employ this demon, you know, this little man that I have here and he can do all the work for you." And, you know, he can help you solve your problems. And the farmer's like, "Really? I need help on the farm. I'll take all the help I can get right now. You know, I have wheat to harvest and hay to put up and, you know, horses to trim their hooves and, you know, whole long list. He's like, "Yes, absolutely." So the wizard opens his bag and out pops this little man and he says, "Okay, the only thing is the the one thing you must do and he will do everything for you. He will solve all of your problems, but you must give him something to do at all times. He must have something to do." And so the farmer's like, "Okay, great. I have a lot to do. So the first thing is carry this water." Okay. the little man says and he grabs the water and they walk back to the farmer's house and the farmer's very happy. He's like, "Oh, yay. Maybe I can actually accomplish something." So the little man's putting the water away and he's starting to make his breakfast. So the little man said, "What can I do now for you, master?" And so the farmer says, "Okay, we need to harvest the corn and put it into, you know, storage." And then we need to cut the wheat and separate the chaff from the grain. And you know, we need to feed the pigs. Yes, master. So the little man goes out the door and the guy starts to cook his eggs. So they just start to get hot and cook. And so he's just about to sit down and the man returns and he's like, "Whoa, that was fast." He says, "Yes, master. It is done. All the work is done." And he's like, "Wow, how did you how did he ever accomplish all that that quickly?" You know, and so anyways, as he's standing there, he's like, "Okay, then we need to irrigate the fields and we need to, you know, call the roosters and hang the ham and the ham and we need to hang them in the cold cellar." Yes, master. So the little man exits and the farmer's like, "Oh, okay, great. Wow, I didn't know he could do that much that quickly." So anyways, he's about to sit down to his breakfast and the little man shows up at the door and he's like, "It is done, master." And now the farmer starts to get a little nervous and he's like, "How is this possible?" And he's like, "What can I do for you, master?" And so he hesitates and he's like and every time he hesitates the little man gets a little bigger and a little bigger and he's like and starting to make the farmer nervous and he's like okay well plant the next season's crops in the field where we cut the corn and the wheat. Yes, master. So the man who's now twice the size he was walks out the door and he's like boy that was harder than I thought. I'm like, how am I going to think of these things to give this man something to do? So, the farmer is like, "Okay, finally a little bit of peace. I can finally have my breakfast." So, the the man returns and he's like, "Whoa." He's like, "That was fast." He's like, "Yes, master. It is done." He's like, "What can I do for you, master?" And he's like, "Uh." And the man and the little man grows a little bigger. And he grows a little bigger till finally every time he he hesitates the the demon grows bigger and bigger and bigger until finally he's like towering over the farmer. What can I do for you, master? And he's uh uh we need uh I need to get out of here. I need water. And so he grabs and he starts to run. And the demon chases after. Master, master, what can I do for you? Master, what can I do? And he's running and he's running and he's running back to the well and he's like, "Where's the wizard? How do I handle this guy?" And so the the demon is charging towards him and his his heart rate is pulsing and he's sweating. And there at the spring is the wizard sitting calmly smoking his herbs and drinking from the spring. And he arrives and he's like, "What do I do? I can't I can't keep this guy busy. I can't." He's like, "So, the wizard looks at him and he reaches out and he plucks a hair from his beard." Ow. He says, "Give him this this curly hair and tell him to straighten it." And so the farmer looks at the curly hair and the demon is standing over him. He's like, "Straighten this." And so the demon grabs it and he's like, "Oh, oh." And every time he straightens it, it curls back up and oh, oh, look at that. And wow. and he shrinks down smaller and smaller and smaller till he's back till his original size. And so the wizard says to the farmer, "This little man is your mind and the curly hair is what you give it to do." And so, as you were speaking before, you find what you need that makes you happy, that brings you that joy, that keeps you engaged. you know that feeds your family that you the things you do for love to live. Mhm. You know so always having something to give your mind. So if it gets frantic you know sitting and just watching the breath they call it vapasa. Mhm. You know where you just watch the breath and that is the meditation. You don't and just whatever thoughts come and go, but you just always return to that breath or sitting in the woods, you return to that I return to the wide angle vision as much as I can and just breathe through the discomfort of holding that position for hours trying not to move. So that way when the blue jay shows up,

he's not going to bust me because he doesn't detect that I'm even human. Hopefully, you know, my one of my life goals is to be be more like a tree, you know. So, so yeah, whatever helps, man. Whatever that curly hair is, you know, for me being a man is like, yeah, that's what it is. is like, "How can I do the thing that satisfies the needs of, you know, my soon-to-be wife and our family?" Like, those things will bring me peace. Yeah. By the way, congratulations. Len's getting married on Friday. No, it's not really a secret anymore, but we've been I can edit that. I can edit that out if you prefer. No, it's okay. We are getting married on Friday. And, you know, that I think is an important part of being a man, too, is Yeah. you know, honoring the feminine, you know. Yes. I mean, I've definitely made my mistakes and done things that aren't, you know, that are rude or, you know, that I would regret or, you know, or learn from, you know, not regret, but be like, "Wow, I'm not going to do that again, you know." Yeah. And that's part of being human. That's part of being human. making mistakes and like not not trying to deny, not trying to like the more open you can be with that. And that was part of my exploration when it comes to part of being a man. What is being unapologetically yourself for one, which I admire about you. I think you are you're an incredible example of just being unapologetically yourself. And it seems like you're at peace with like I don't care what people think about me or you know, maybe you maybe you do. I I I don't know. But that's how it appears. It's like I'm just going to be myself. And it's like you're you're grounded in that mentality where it's like I can be who I am and it doesn't bother me what other people think, how they perceive me. Of course, we always we have this tribal tribal mentality as humans, right? To want to be liked, to want to be respected, and to belong to a group sometimes. But also it's I look at it as a mindset is yes there's that component but also the component of just being able to be yourself and comfortable with who you are. And so and then pairing that with with being a man and being able to apologize and being able to make mistakes. And then on the other side of it, being able to just be open about any challenges or struggles or just being able to understand emotions and not bottling them to the point where you know it's like it's like a Coke and Mentos, right? You you keep you take a Coke and your problems are the Mentos and you keep putting those Mentos in, putting those Mentos in until you can't put any more in. And then you put the cap on, right? and you shake it up and boom, the Coke explodes, right? And it's like there's so many men in that position of the Coke and the Mentos where it's like it's that's not a healthy reaction for those emotions. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I've definitely experienced that where, you know, my emotions bottle up and, you know, and that's those are the things that I'm like, wow, that was dumb. Mhm. Why the did I ever do that? You know, I wish I hadn't done that. I'm so sorry. And yeah, and it's hard. I think that's part of being human. It's hard to one acknowledge that fully and not try to be defensive, you know, about it, but just be like, whoa, that really upset someone like what I was thinking in that moment doesn't really matter that much now. Mhm. you know, like no, what really matters is making peace now. Yeah. You know, that's really what matters. And you know, I've strive to make deeper connections in life. And I know that like my emotions have frayed those connections or, you know, I had Lyme disease. I'm still working on doing homeopathy now for lime and that has really affected my emotional state, you know, my ability to have a calm balanced state because I feel like this deep underlying stress like the actual physical feeling of something consuming my brain and my nerves and my body and just [ __ ] in my and leaving me with toxic sludge, you know? It's like the worst feeling, you know, I've gotten. Babzia and Bartella and lime from tix. Tick. And so, you know, I feel like I need to like write all the people that I offended when it was like at its peak because my brain was not working properly. And, you know, I'm sure I said things that people didn't want to hear or that that I would never have said that way, you know, without that stress. And I think that's part of it too is like you know like with my partner wanting to provide for her for our family you know and caretake her and caretake our children that we have one day that we want to have and you know I we as men you know I also need to take care of myself too you know and that is often forgotten. Yeah. You know, it's easy to forget that and you know, but if I don't like treat my wound, if I don't put my air mask on, I can't help the person next to me, you know, if I'm not breathing fully and deeply and calmly and getting that energy, you know. Mhm. And it's hard to identify like where that energy is spilling out, where I'm losing energy or those distractions sometimes are, you know, until they like build up and then it's like, whoa, there's a blind spot there. You know, I've discovered in my own personal journey, the root of a lot of my inability to to stop putting Mentos in the Coke bottle was a communication problem. M for me it was a lack of being able to communicate clearly wants needs supports whatever it may be and it took a lot of inner reflection and moments of silence. I used to fear being alone with in you know by myself with my thoughts because I was never sure what was going to creep up right. It could be a confidence thing you know am I enough for my family? Am I enough for, you know, my employer? Am I enough for any anything? Right? And so it took some some of those battles and I found that I was very good at distracting myself, right? TV, phone, music, you know, I couldn't first thing I do, I get in the car, put on music, right? Because it's like that's the one of the clearest places. And it wasn't until I started hiking solo where being in the woods by myself, I'm like something about that in the isolation was really good. And there were pockets where I would some of that would creep up. But because I was in that environment and some of that energy of being outdoors in the woods, in the earth, in the wildlife, I was able to channel that differently. And so I was able to do that reflection for myself and I'm sure this has been beneficial to you in your life and it sounds like in your experiences some similarity having to be able to channel that energy and redirect where maybe some of that self-doubt or you know whatever issues were going on is starting to creep up. I was able to actually hear them for the first time in my life and then use the positive energy around me to think clearer to to think deeper and come up with maybe solutions or the ability to search for answers or to come up with a plan to figure out how do I get the answer to some of these. But the root of it all came back to communication. That's powerful that realization. Yeah. Yeah. It was it was really powerful and something I neglected for so much of my life and who knows where it comes from. You know, it could have been, you know, maybe it was family, maybe we're bad communicators or whatever the case may be. just on on on more than a surface level communication, just the deeper communication. You know, I I I've been connecting with a lot of men who are working in different elements of this this space of men's mental health and men's wellness. And a lot of the conversations sometimes are going back to the boy, right? Because so much of who you are today is shaped and transformed through those years of your mind being a sponge. Those learned behaviors as a kid, those experiences, both good and bad, as a kid, shape kind of who you are today. And being able to identify with that boy, right, and connect those dots is really powerful to understanding who you are as a person today. Yeah. Yeah, that's for sure. You know, we don't know who we are without looking back at where we've come from or where we knowing where we've been. And you've done this in in your studies, not just only in your own personal, but I like that you've gone back to our ancient ancestors because there's so much to learn about that and from them, right? And that that perspective. One of the one of the my newfound joys too is framing and reframing different things in perspectives. And so I think that's really interesting what you have done in in these these stories and these these learned skills that have been passed down and I think that's really transformative and I think we need more of that. I think what you're doing is amazing and I think it needs to be shared on a grander level. Thanks. I think more people I I do and I think, you know, I I'm hoping as I build this community I'm hoping as we build this community with Forge and Freedom that we can work together, right? So I can bring, you know, hopefully the the the brotherhood that comes along with us and that are, you know, getting into these side quests and adventures as we continue to grow and build. We can also come together with Len Mackey and Ancient Earth Skills and learn, you know, I'd love one one of the favorite things we did over the summer was the bow drill and watching the kids. remember it was right up, you know, we were done for the day, but we had a group of boys, you know, out back and they were not giving up until they could get the Tinder lit, right? And the giant bow drill, the giant bow drill. There's two of them, right? Yeah. It was so fun. But it was a challenge for them. And I'm like, every man still has that boy in them. Doesn't matter what it is. Maybe it's fast cars, you know, maybe it's it's hunting because that's what you do as a boy with your with your father or fishing or you know what whatever it is that you experience. We we all have that deep rooted need to go back to being a boy and connecting that with naturally with what you have for skills I think is so fun. And also, if you want to be part of outdoor adventure and you want to recreate in the outdoors, you should actually learn some of the essential skills that you have in your toolbox, you know, how to avoid hypothermia, how to have a pace plan, you know, like primary alternate contingency emergency, you know, have your primary goal is to get out of the woods and go back home and eat dinner with your beloved ones. You know, your alternate plan is, oh, I don't know where I am in the woods, but I have my compass and I know there's a catch feature to the east, so I'm going to head do east, hit the river, and that'll bring me to the road, and then I'll be safe. You know, I'll get back to my people. Or contingency being I have no idea where I am. I need to find the stars to tell me which way is north so that I can orient the east. Well, the sun rises in the east, you know. Okay, I can head east in the morning or oh, I guess I won't be getting off this mountain tonight. It's cloudy. I have no idea where I am or where I'm going. So, primarily we need to look after our body temperature. You know, we need to be dry. We need to be warm. you you can get hypothermic in in July or August if it's raining and windy and you don't have the right stuff, you know, and then, okay, well, it's too cold or I need to build a shelter or maybe there's snow crusted over the leaves, so I can't just build a pile of leaves and sleep in there quick tonight. I need to be able to make a fire, you know? So knowing the trees and knowing the landscape and knowing how to make fire on the spot is awesome. I mean it's and the gratitude that comes with that. Oh, it's such an incredible feeling. It's totally orgasmic, man. you know, just like wonderful, expansive, beautiful feeling of like, wow, I just walked into landscape, harvest these things, and then made this friction fire with all I had was a string and my knife, you know, and so knowing all that is like is wonderful, you know, if if you can, you know, so having all of your needs and having those pace plans when you go in the woods for all of them, like water, you know, If if if you don't get out, well, you need to have ideally a singlewalled steel canteen that you can put water in that maybe it's not ideal water, but you could boil that water in that that single wall canteen. Or if all you have is a double wall stainless steel, well, you could heat rocks in a fire and boil water that way, you know. So, knowing the skills that can satisfy each level, you know, of need is is is really it's humbling because to learn them there's a lot of failure but it's also very empowering. Yeah. You know having those school those skills in your back pocket. Yeah. And each skill is a school in itself like just learning fire. You could dedicate your whole life to that or making baskets or identifying the trees or making fiber wild fibers you know tanning hides you know I'm working on this mask and cape. So, you know, I can hunt deer dressed as a deer, but I'm a little nervous because I don't want to get shot, you know. So, you know, I just I'll just put like I Well, usually when I have BB, I have a a blaze orange hat and and vest that accompanies him. Yeah. Yeah. So, we'll just put that on before we go out, you know, just to be safe. Yeah.

Ah, that's on private land, by the way. His own private land. Only on private land. That's right. But, you know, it's illegal to put a decoy out for deer, you know, to bait them. But apparently, I was talking to the rangers and wearing the deer costume wouldn't, you know, or maybe No, maybe you can put the decoy out in the day. I don't know. I have to double check, but I'm pretty sure from what they said, it's legal. Yeah. So I wouldn't be breaking any laws doing that, which is which is important because I like my hunting license and Yeah. You know, all that stuff. So So if I see in the woods this fall with the if I see a deer in the woods with a blaze orange hat and a vest, I can call out to you. Yeah. You can be like BB and Len. Also, I did another one, a beautiful eight point that I called with my voice, you know, with grunts and bleets, you know.

And he came running in. You can see it on my Instagram, Ancient Earth Skills. Yeah. And he just lops right up to the edge of the forest like, "Where are they? I'm going to be the one to breed, you know." Yeah. And so, fortunately, BB and two eagles get along. They don't usually fight very much. So, yeah, you know, they're buddies. Um, so it'll either be at this beautiful BB or a small eight point.

But I'm looking to make a whole family of deer. Actually, I got another one. Big Mama Sylvie, a big dough I got last year during muzzle loading season. And then a little fawn that was harvested on a farm, a nuisance tag. Mhm. Because she was eating their medicinal plants. So, they got a DEC tag. Little fawn named Medicine. She was eating the medicinal plants. So, that's her name. So, we have two bucks, a dough, and a fawn. And I'm hoping to expand the deer family and you know just we can hang out do dear things

the things that are dearest Yeah. to our heart you know. Yeah. It sounds just like you and I love I love that. Yeah man. It's great. So I would love to to participate with you guys and you know share in any way I can. You know, that's definitely my goal in life is to connect people more deeply to the earth, to their own hands, empower them with real skills, you know. Yeah. You have a unique skill set and I think there's a lot of people whether you're a hunter, an athlete, a hiker, a kayaker, whatever it is, you know, someone that just enjoys walking in the woods, you have a unique skill set that is valuable to teach other people. not only just from a knowing and a knowledge standpoint, but from a practical um life case scenario, right? Where you could it's easy to get lost, right? And if you don't have sure can be the knowledge, you might have a a map or a compass, but if you don't have the knowledge to use that tool, it's pretty much useless. Yeah. not entirely useless, but it's not going to be as beneficial as having that knowledge and having that the understanding. Yeah. And you know, that's that's the thing is like it's the skills that we have that we carry with us no matter what we have with us. Mhm. You know, and if you don't have a knife, but you know how to break a rock to carve that notch in your fireboard, then you can make fire, you know, and Yeah. And they're so fun to explore. And I think one of the other things that I really love about these earthbased skills is that it gives us time together like this. That's huge. Where we just sit and we talk and we might be grinding on a bow or rasping on, you know, a piece of oage or hickory or, you know, building our fire kit or making pottery or tanning heights. You know, it's a lot of elbow grease. Mhm. And so the body, you know, the mind has that curly hair to play with and then the other parts of our mind, the other minds are the bits of our consciousness can share and connect and and I think that's what I love about these skills so much is the time richness. one that they require, you know, that we have to spend the time to do them and to learn them and and that investing and seeing the results in itself is amazing, but also the time we get to spend with others and build our connections and invest in each other's lives and and ourselves in that way, you know. So, the skills are it's amazing. I feel we evolved to do that together around the fire. Yeah. You know, and kind of back to our roots. Yeah. Exactly. Right. And and providing that opportunity. I think some people have to just be pushed out of the routine a little bit to get to break free from the isolation, right? And so it's it doesn't matter. Yeah. I've had a lot of conversations lately and it's guys are like, you know, I've got a lot of friends. You know, I got friends at work or I've got high school friends. But it's that that deep connectedness where you do something together and you get into conversation or you talk about life's challenges or you just have that like feeling of connectedness of brotherhood isn't exactly there because we're still living in distraction to some degree or we're worried about time. We're checking our watch or we have to be. So being able to carve out just small pockets of time and dedicating yourself to break free of that isolation and join other men to feel comfortable being uncomfortable is sometimes difficult. Yeah. Especially when we live in a modern society where comfort can come fairly easy. But there is something about being uncomfortable. I'll give you a quick story. So I caught myself yesterday when we did our first side quest. We did the cold plunge and campfire coffee. I caught myself walking into the water with my Crocs on. And I'm like, because it was rocky and there was seaweed and it was going to be a little painful. I'm like, wait, hold on. I'm not practicing what I preach. I I caught myself and I was really happy I did. I'm like, "No, you got to feel that uncomfortableness if you want to find yourself, right?" And so I walk back and kick my crocs off. I walk back in the water. I walked through the rocks. I walked through the seaweed, which didn't feel great, but it was I was grateful for being there in that moment and feeling all of that. And that was amazing. Yeah. And even though I I kicked a huge rock, I have a huge black and blue black and blue toenail right now. I I think the thing's actually going to probably fall off and new one's going to grow. It is painful. I hiked through it yesterday. Probably not the best decision. It wasn't until we were almost up to Keen it the pain actually started to set in and I took my sock off and I said, "Oh boy, this is going to be that's a good one." Luckily, it was a short hike. But coming back down, I've I've hiked high peaks before, you know, 10, 12, 14 mile hikes. But yesterday's hike, that 1 2 miles was like the longest hike I've ever done. It wasn't too bad going up. It was just coming down cuz when you're hiking it's like you know you're putting your weight and your pressure on your toes right for your grip and it's like everything was coming down on that one toenail and I was just like oh I can relate during that pain but I'm like you know I'm going to get through this and I just got I was grateful again in that moment to enjoy that beautiful fall view of the mountains looking out across and seeing the great range and just seeing that wonderful fall color and being there with my family in that moment that once I got to the top that pain had gone away and then you know I put put my hiking boot back on I start track back down the mountain and it seeps back in but and it's just those those moments of yeah pushing through the discomfort pushing through the discomfort and being comfortable with being uncomfortable. Yeah. And that's hard, you know, but that's what all exercise is and does for us, you know, like we endure, it's like I would say a lot in my fitness classes, my interval classes and stuff, like we die a little today to live a little more tomorrow. Mhm. You know, we we put oursel through this discomfort. We're a little sore, but we're stronger for it, you know. And the other option is like, well, you could be sore from the workout or you could be in pain from not moving. And I'm like, I think I would rather do the workout. I feel better. Yeah. But, you know, I can relate to that, you know, especially like couch potato to wild critter. To wild critter. Yeah. It's a corrective exercise, you know, cuz everybody has some kind of imbalance. A leg is longer, a foot is bigger, an injury on one side or the other. M and so everybody that I was working with personal training I'm like whoa we need to address this guy's posture his back is he needs to strengthen and just even become aware of his back because if he's going to be squatting heavy weight it's not going to be safe for his spine you know or if he's trying to do that so what I realized is that's step one is like figure out where the imbalances are and then move in a way that is corrective and supportive of that And that's how we grow, man. It's exactly how you grow. Yeah. We It's hard to grow if you're just always comfortable and cozy all the time. Yeah. And cuz then you're not prepared for when you're forced to get uncomfortable. Yeah. Cuz there are moments in life where you're going to be forced to be uncomfortable and not knowing how to react in those moments. Yeah. That sucks. Yeah. I've been there. I've I've had those moments in my life where I was getting I might have been comfortable or whatever and then all of a sudden, you know, you get thrown a curveball or whatever the case may be and now you're uncomfortable and you're not prepared to be uncomfortable. Yeah. Right. So, it's like there's a little bit of training that goes into that. Mhm. So, that way you're prepared when life throws you that curveball. Yeah. It's like uh you know, I trained ninjutsu with uh my teacher Ben in Vermont. and he's an affiliate of New England Ninjutsu. Okay? And you know, there's the sensei and there's the UK, you know, the there's the teacher and then there's the student. The UK is the one who receives the damage, right? Or receives the technique. And that always you know most everything is some kind of pain or offbalancing you know and distraction like as we move in that way like the ninja like the samurai these styles that are fused through this bjen khan ninjutsu lineage and so feeling that pain like whoa my wrist is locking up whoa yes that whoa like that's the spot you know so without going through that and being locked [ __ ] up and feeling that discomfort, I wouldn't know how to get out of that situation or or, you know, god forbid I ever have to use those tools. I don't want to ever, you know, only in self-defense, right? But it's good to have them in my back pocket. Yeah. You know, Yeah. And it makes me just feel more comfortable and you know, hopefully everybody's a little safer if I'm there. For sure. Yeah. So listen, Len, I I appreciate this has been an awesome conversation. You know, we we've never had a chance to actually sit down and connect. We've had some some some impassing through program and, you know, kind of some small conversations while different activities were going on. But I this was definitely a huge part of my agenda was to be able to get someone like yourself on and just have this really deep-seated conversation and get to learn a little bit more about you and your experiences and some of your wisdoms that you bring. And boy, I think that's been a treat here today on the podcast. And so, you know, I just want to express my total gratitude for you carving out a couple hours of your your Monday morning here uh on a busy week for you to sit down with me and really share some of your stories and your experiences with the with the podcast and those that are listening. And yeah, congratulations again on your engagement and getting married on Friday. And you know, you deserve it. You deserve you deserve everything. And so, you know, if if anyone's listening, so you've got your own online content. So, if anyone's interested in kind of learning about what you do, where can they find, you know, Len Macky's Ancient Earth Skills? Yeah, that's it. Ancient Earth Skills-Len Mackey is the YouTube and then Ancient Earth Skills on Instagram and on Facebook. The school is Ancient Earth Skills. I originally put the ancient earth skills on YouTube without my name and it ended up being some like heavy metal video that would come up and I'm like, "Oh [ __ ] that doesn't really work. I got to put my name on there so people could actually find it." Yeah. And and that worked and since then it's been there like that. So yeah, ancient earth skills with Len Mackey. I'm happy to be of service and to teach. starting a homeschool program actually here in the north country after school two to six on Thursdays. You know, kids eight plus that are mature and eager to learn are welcome. And also I encourage parents and elders and family to come and join in the fun as well cuz I'm a fan of multigenerational learning and all that stuff too. We're going to be doing like primitive pottery and fire making and we're going to do some fishing trips and yeah, it's going to be fun. So, excellent. Yeah, I highly highly recommend reaching out to Len. Like I said, I have the experience of working with him and seeing really the education and the knowledge in the joy that he has from the perspective of working with youth, but I can tell in just conversation really quite quite anybody with an open mind and a level of interest to really consider reaching out to to Len. And yeah, it's been great to have you. It's been so fun here. Yeah, I feel blessed to be here and conversation. Yeah, super good. You never know what what a connection will bring up in the moment. It's always new and and alive. It's authentic and just raw and unfiltered and no agenda. That's why that's why I came up with the name into the fire, right? Because the people that we have on have been into the fire, have come out, have been able to share their stories and their experiences, but at the same perspective, it's the same as sitting around a campfire. You know, if you're sitting around with a group of people, that's just that raw authentic conversation that comes out and it's really some of my favorite moments and you know what what comes of that the storytelling. Baptism by fire. Yeah. Baptism by fire. That's right. But yeah, just connection and warmth. Really, the warmth of connection. Yeah. So, I look forward hopefully we'll have you on again and you know I want to talk after the podcast and just see about uh you know what we can do to to connect and and bring things together. So, yeah, that sounds great. Yeah. So, that leads me into uh Forging Freedom. So, last week we launched our side quests which are our no cost just one day, couple hour uh adventures. This past weekend, well yesterday uh we did our first side quest. We did a cold plunge and campfire. We we had coffee. We jumped in the St. Lawrence River. It was a chilly 50° 6:30 in the morning. It was early, but what a great way to really just reset your mind, reset your body, be ready for the day and the week ahead and sit around with with the people to have some really good conversation and talk about goals and challenges for the week. And uh so next week we have coming up is our second week of Side Quest. We have the sunrise hike of Big Slide. Big Slide is one of the 46 high peaks in the Aderondex. I have done this before. It is one of my favorite sunrise hikes. It's an early morning. We're meeting at 4:00 a.m. at the Garden Trail Trail Head parking uh in order to get up to catch sunrise around 6:30, not have to rush, be able to accommodate anybody in the group. And uh I plan on bringing the Jet Boil, breakfast sandwiches, and the coffee. So, if you're looking or interested in doing that, reach out to us at forgginfreedom.com. You can sign up for that event. And you can see all the other fall side quests we have planned, including our Brotherhood Breakthrough Weekend in November. With that said, this is a wrap for episode two. I want to thank you for joining us and for listening this podcast. I hope you're able to take something away from this conversation with myself and Len Mackey. So, with that said, keep your fire lit, keep pushing, and keep showing up. We'll see you on the next episode.

[Music]

EPISODE 4: THERE

to forging freedom into the fire, the podcast where men sharpen themselves and build brotherhood. I'm Zach Monroe, your host, and every week we dig into real stories, gritty adventures, and the mindset it takes to live free and lead strong. Pull up a chair by the fire, and let's dive in. [Music] Welcome back to another episode of Into the Fire podcast. Today it's just me and the microphone and I want to share a story about direction, about what happens when you drop your plans, trust your gut, and let the moment decide what matters most. It's a story about my son, the mountains, and a single word that's been stuck in my head for days now. And the word is there. So, here's how it all started. It was last Friday afternoon, the kind where we're running on fumes, but still chasing something real. And my wife and I had one of those spontaneous ideas that seem ridiculous when you say it out loud. And we said, "Let's head to the mountains after school and go catch the sunset." Now, the kids get out of school at 3:00. Mountains are 2 hours away. We still had to pack the car, grab our gear, snacks, water bottles. You know the drill. And every part of me was thinking, "God, this is going to be chaos." But then there was another part of me, that quiet, restless part that said, "Just go anyway." And you know, so we did. And we hit the road. We were chasing the daylight toward Lake Placid. You could see the stunt the sun already starting to dip and the sky had that nice like golden haze to it. You know when you're driving through the aderondex and everything just feels like it's glowing. Yeah, that was kind of that moment. And as we got closer, I started realizing there was no way we were going to make the mountain that we had planned. There was no chance. So, you know, the old me probably would have called it and said, "Hey, we'll try it again tomorrow. Let's grab dinner instead. Go home." But something in this new me just said just pivot, you know, and and so I did what every dad trying to hold on to a good idea does. And I improvised and very quickly we found a smaller familiar mountain closer to town. It wasn't the one we had originally planned, but it would get us to the summit before the sun had dropped. And so we pulled in the trail head, we tossed on our packs, and we just went for it. You know, there were no breaks. We had no snacks, just steady hiking, a solid 28 minutes straight up to the peak. You know, our lungs were burning, hearts were pumping, and you know, we're kind of just chasing that last little bit of light to the point we even had to turn our headlamps on towards the end. And right as the world kind of started to turn that beautiful orange and gold, we had broke through the trees to the summit and something really spectacular happened. My son just stopped dead in his tracks and he looked out over the high peaks over this just endless stretch of ridge lines glowing in the sunset and he pointed out and he just said there. That's it. One word there. And you know, he didn't need to explain it. He didn't need to describe what he saw. He just knew. And at that moment, it hit me harder than I really expected because here was this little kid standing in a place he'd never been before, seeing a view that just takes your breath away. And without hesitation, without doubt, without overthinking, he just knew. And he knew that this was the moment we're chasing. That this was the reason we had hurried to get in the car right after school. The reason that we had pivoted, climbed, and pushed ourselves. And I thought to myself, you know, Zach, when's the last time I had that kind of clarity? When's the last time I stopped analyzing? When's the last time I stopped planning, controlling, and just said to myself, "There. That's where I want to go. That's what I'm after. Not next year. Not once things calm down. Not once, not once I get my next job lined up. That's what I want now." And you know, and just watching him stand there, he's got his orange little car heart hat on. He's got his little Osprey backpack, uh, sweat just kind of dripping down his face. I'd realized something else, too, that he wasn't thinking about the time that we had lost or the mountain that we didn't climb or whether it was worth it. He was just there. He was just fully present. And man, that hit me as a dad because that is exactly what I want for him and really for myself, too. And to to be the kind of man who still sees the world with that kind of wonder, who doesn't over complicate simple things, who knows that just being there, really being there is more important than where there even is. And you know, we live in this constant grind of meetings of goals, responsibilities, family bills, deadlines, trying to get the the dishes in the sink done, trying to get the lawn mower. that somewhere along the way we stop chasing sunsets. We stop pivoting. We stop saying why not and start saying, "Ah, maybe I'll do that later." But later never feels like enough, does it? You know, that moment on the mountain last Friday afternoon reminded me a lot of of why I started forging freedom. You know, for years I had this notebook, aka a folder on my laptop, and I've shared this on other EP podcast episodes before, but this is a really fitting example that, you know, I've got this this uh folder of business ideas, 16 of them to be exact, 17 counting for freedom now. But, you know, with each one of those business ideas comes a full business plan, a logo, name, budgets, all that stuff that you need to get started and off the ground. And I never and I've never moved on any of them. You know, I think I kept waiting for the right time or the perfect version or the approval, but that right never came, that right time. And until one day I stopped waiting and I just said, "There, that's the one. That's where I'm going." No hesitation, no overplanning, just that same instinct my son had on the top of Mount Joe last Friday. there, you know, and that's really how Forge and Freedom came to life. And the idea that it's it's a community built for guys just like me, guys who are craving something real again, whether that be connection, brotherhood, movement, get breaking free of isolation, getting a chance to reset, maybe spend a weekend away or do a side quest and do a couple hours, make new friends, whatever that is. It's it's really a sense of purpose that doesn't come from screens, doesn't come from job titles, but it does come from brotherhood, from sweat, from dirt, from shared experiences. And it's really about discovering what is your there, you know. And the wild thing is is I've had guys who reach out and say, you know, I'd really like to show up even if I can show up once. You know, I feel like this is an opportunity that can make me feel something that I haven't felt in years. And I think the idea is that not because, you know, we're fixing anything, but we're giving men and guys a platform and a space to just breathe, to really reset and take an opportunity to to break free of isolation, to break free of autopilot, you know, and and the more I think about it, the more I realize life's about a series of pivots. And I think this is part of the deeper message here is that we set our sights on one mountain, one goal, one plan. But then when things shift and the timing's off or the path changes or the weather turns, we're then faced with two choices. We can either quit or we can pivot. But either way, the sun's still going to go down. And the only way to see the view is to keep on moving. And so that's what my son reminded me of. That's what I want for freedom to remind other men of can't keep wait or you know we can keep waiting for the perfect moment or we can chase the sunset even if we have to change mountains. That was the lesson that we learned last week. So, you know, I think I'm challenging you maybe this week to just take a moment and ask yourself what is your there? What's that one thing you've been talking yourself out of? that one goal, that one trip, that one conversation you've been putting off because maybe it's inconvenient or you're scared or uncertain or you're worried about how someone's going to react or feel. You know what? If you just stopped overthinking it and just started walking because clarity doesn't always come before the climb. Sometimes it shows up halfway up the mountain or when you reach top of the mountain or right when you see the light hit the ridge just right. And you know when it does, you'll know. You'll look out, take a breath, and say, "There." Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Into the Fire. You know, if this story hit home for you, if it made you think about your own there, please share it with someone who might need that reminder, too. And if you want to be a part of what we're building, this movement of men reconnecting through outdoors, through honest conversations, through real life, you know, please check out our website, forgefreedom.com. And don't forget to follow us on social media. We're on every platform that there is. Just look up Forge and Freedom. And we're putting out sometimes daily content. And just remember that there's a place for everyone here. So until next time, keep forging ahead, keep chasing the light, and remember, sometimes there isn't a place, it's a mindset. We'll see you on the next episode.

Heat. Heat. [Music]

Episode 5: Buddies & burnout with adam soller

Welcome to Forge & Freedom into the Fire, the podcast where men sharpen themselves and build brotherhood. I'm Zach Monroe, your host, and every week we dig into real stories, gritty adventures, and the mindset it takes to live free and lead strong. Pull up a chair by the Fire, and let's dive in.

Welcome back to another episode of Forge & Freedom into the Fire podcast. I'm your host, Zach Monroe, and I'm joined again today with Adam for another episode. This is episode five. Um, we are here to talk about um being outside and using adventure as therapy and um talking about burnout and being able to manage an uncontrollable schedule sometimes. And so, you know, actually today was a perfect example of that. It's Friday afternoon. It was a little chilly this morning. Um, but AD and I had an opportunity to get together before the podcast and we uh went for a three-mile walk on the John Story Trail and just had some really good discussions about some of these topics today too. Um, we also got into some heavy conversation about um health, right? And kind of that natural or holistic um, you know, being of sound body and mind and how that can help heal your body sometimes, too. But um for me personally, I've found that you know being outside um just being grounded and being you know getting the fresh air has been really beneficial. So you know I think some of the idea that we're going to talk about in this episode is you know something that um men need to talk about more um talk about times when maybe we have struggled and you know didn't feel that we could talk about it. Um how we deal with pressure. I think that's a big conversation and um you know talking about why men are maybe afraid to admit that they're they're tired or burned out or you know are dealing with a lot of responsibilities. So you know um let's just kind of get in some conversation here also. Thanks for joining me today again. This is fantastic. Yeah, thanks for having me again. Excited. Um yeah, let's uh rock and roll. Um did you enjoy the walk this morning? Loved it. And yeah, being outside, being in in nature is uh really marvelous. Uh so, and to enjoy it with a friend just yeah, perfect way to start a morning. Yeah, definitely therapeutic. You know, I I like something that you said this morning. You're like, you know, we're not always going to be able to do these cold plunges. you know, we'll do them as long as we can up until, you know, you got to break through six inches of ice. And I'm going to get an augur out to do a cold plunge. But, um, something that you had mentioned that you like to do, I thought that was kind of neat, uh, is to just throw the boots on, put some shorts on, put a t-shirt on, and just go sit outside in the middle of winter sometimes to get that body to adjust, right? And even though it was 40° this morning, like you said it too, like we should be, why do we have hoodies on? We should just be slowly adjusting and acclimating our bodies to, you know, the cold weather as it comes on it instead of just waiting until mid January and then trying to just dive right into it. Yeah, it's one of those homeopathic therapies, free therapy, you know, getting sun and acclimated to the cold. um that really kind of turns on some responses that helps you with stress and anxiety and the pressure of a busy work life or just a busy life in general. Um it's one of those free therapies. Get out there, get in the sun. Um yeah, I like to start early so that it's not such a shock. I think we kind of talked like you kind of wait until winter's here to get out in the cold, then you're going to be cold. You start now as the fall um creeps in and gets colder and colder. You slowly get acclimated and you'll be more comfortable as as the winter approaches and once winter's here. Uh, and it's one of those ways to kind of force you into some breath work. And I guess, uh, it's one of those other therapies that can help you with a busy work life and stress, anxiety, and stuff like that. Um, it could go a long way for people who recreate outdoors in the winter, too, right? So whether you like to hunt or ice fish or ski or snowboard or [ __ ] I mean, even if you go out to shovel your driveway, you know, especially living up here in the Northeast and exactly where we live on the border of Canada, um although it hasn't been as cold these last few years, it still gets pretty cold. And so I guess doing these types of things and slowly acclimating your body um helps when it comes to participating in those activities, right? And could prevent, you know, um hypothermia, right? If you're a hunter, you get lost out in the woods, but your body's now acclimated where if you just try to dive into it in the middle of November and you're in the woods and it's, you know, 10°, it's going to be tough. I mean, you got to have all your you got to have all your equipment and be responsible and prepared regardless, but I think doing this um super important. Certainly. Yeah. You're avoiding that shock. Um and especially if you're um going out hunting, hunting or into the woods,

if yeah, if you potentially get lost or, you know, something doesn't um work out the way you think it's going to work out. If you're already if you're not acclimated to the cold and you're you know you're instantly just cold, you're putting yourself in a um in a situation that is not ideal. Certainly with hunting and fishing like you know if uh I mean it's another way too like that's the easy way to get sick. you know, you can prevent yourself from getting sick from exposing yourself to the elements as they progressively change, you know, so it's not so sudden and your body is going to respond. It's going to prepare for that. So, you're also avoiding colds and other things like that, but like you're right, you know, you just kind of been in a warm environment and all of a sudden it's hunting season. You go out there and um you easily could get in a state of shock, um cold, uncomfortable. You probably might get out of the woods before you want to cuz you're like sitting there and it's just too damn cold to sit here. Yeah. And bail. But um one of those I mean just thinking about it like hunting and fishing in the cold. It's another way that like it really brings on breathing techniques cuz if you have those techniques of uh dealing with a cold like you're going to be more comfortable and you're going to be more open and free and more enjoyable. probably clarity in your mind too, right? Oh, certainly. I think that kind of every hunter and fishermen will probably tell you that it's extremely beneficial and clarity of your mind. And doing it in the cold, it kind of forces you to slow your breath down to kind of ignore that little guy in your head going, man, it's it's cold. I'm like, I'd rather be in my recliner drinking some coffee in a nice heated environment. Like, what are we doing here? And just you're like, you know what, little dude? You're going to just chill out and in a few minutes you're going to realize why we're out here and start enjoying, you know, the connection to nature and and just embracing the cold. Yeah. Um, what's what's your kind of go-to getaway when life feels too much? Like what's your what's your adventure of choice? That's easy for me. Um, it's always been fishing. Fishing

has been a staple and it works every time I every time I go fishing. The funny thing is there's a lot of times there's like, man, I don't feel like really getting the boat out or getting the stuff together. Um, traveling to get there and it's like I could just sit here and chill. But every time I'm like, you know, gather my stuff and actually go out and fishing and you're sitting there and be like, man, how could I even second think coming out here? Like he, you know, I'm out. Once you're out in out there enjoying it, you're just embracing the environment, you know, the the trees, the birds. Yeah. Um it's very therapeutic to for me. It's like um I feel that way with camping and hiking. Um I always dread the the pack though. It's like it's therapeutic until it comes time to start packing and you're like, "Oh [ __ ] I was a terrible Tetris player." So, I usually let Paige do a lot of the packing because like I'll go like pack the car and she'll look at it and be like, "You're an idiot." And then just unpack everything and just like put it back. You know what I mean? So, it's like it looks nice, everything fits properly because if it's up to me, like I'm I'm just throwing the [ __ ] the gear in the car and like ready to go. And like it's always like that's the most stressful part, but then you get out there, you get, you know, you get set up, you're you're unpacked and it's like you remember why you did all that because it's like you're surrounded and it's just is a great feeling now. So, we just went through that last last weekend. It was actually a week ago from today. I talked about it on pre the last podcast episode how we we kind of had this spur-of the- moment decision to go, you know, pack up, do some car camping, try and catch sunset hike and then turn around um within, you know, 10 hours with maybe six hours of sleep and do a sunrise hike. And we got Wilson with us. So, it's like you always got to pack extra stuff for the kids, right? Like extra snacks, extra blankets, like everything. Snacks. Yeah, I got to have the snacks. So, um, and it was, you know, I spent, oh my god, uh, maybe two hours cuz Paige was still at school, Wilson was still in school, Beexley was still in school. And so I was like, okay, well, I'm going to try to have everything ready by the time they got home. And I I had a lot of it ready, right? I had, you know, our our book bags packed. I had everything together, but it was like, God, this is timeconuming. But thinking back to kind of the moments and those memories that we were put that we were able to have put together last weekend, it was all worth it, right? And so like having that sense of adventure and um having that reset I think is huge. And it's and it's really neat because everybody has kind of their own go-to when life feels kind of heavy or busy. And you know, I'm hoping what we're doing here with Forge and Freedom that maybe people and guys who haven't found that yet can hopefully find maybe that passion or that hobby, whether it be, you know, fishing with us or going for a hike or going camping or doing a rock or cold plunge or, you know, what whatever these activities and side quests are that we've, you know, we've been working and planning on. Um, if somebody is, you know, I think we had a great conversation with Abram DeMarco on Monday over a cup of coffee. He, uh, we're gonna have him on the podcast hopefully soon, too. He does leadership consulting, and he had a, um, a pretty extensive career in the military and different aspects. And so, he had some really good insight for us, too. And he's like, you know, we're sitting here having coffee. We're trying to just talk to him about what we're building. And he made a really good point. And he goes, "Well, guys," he's like, "I'm your clientele. Why haven't I done it yet?" And he's he's like, "I can't entirely tell you why. There's probably some reasons. I've got a busy schedule. Um, I'm really interested in what you're doing." He said, "But I'm not from here." He said, "I like to fish, but if you asked me right now to say, let's go fishing," I wouldn't know where to go. Right? And so like being able to bring some of that experience and expertise to the table is super important. And I feel like whether it be fishing or hiking or hunting, I feel like there's a lot of guys who are interested in doing those but maybe were never brought along to it, right? Or never learned or never just experienced it. And you know, I'm actually I'm doing my hunter safety course right now. And that's one of the first things they say is that, you know, an inexperienced hunter should go with an experienced hunter so that way they can learn kind of just the way of the land, you know, just the techniques, the the study of Corey, like all those different things. And we talked about it last last week, too, that that hunting just wasn't those things that we grew up doing, but we're both interested in. And so it's cool to find that um to be f you're to be following that path and trying to learn that new experience. And you know, and I'm grateful for you because you uh the last month we've gone fishing a couple times and I've I've always loved fishing. I've just like needed that push to get out and go do it, right? And so that's been huge and I I appreciate you doing that. And like that's just this solo individual thing that that you've done for me and back in, you know, vice versa. But, you know, if it's working for us, I think something like this could also work for for other guys, too. You just sometimes need to be um I don't want to say coarse, but like sort of course like just like push like or just invited maybe. What about just a a simple invite like, "Hey, we're going to do this. You want to try it out?" Yeah. Or enticed. Um, I think that's a huge aspect of this is you create a group of guys that all kind of enjoy nature in different ways and with that comes a certain set of experience and I think a lot of guys would like to adventure in different ways and having others that have that experience to tag along with or be invited um is going to increase the probability of you actually doing that especially if you've made you know some commitments before like say you know I'm going to bring you fishing you know because that's my go-to and we're going to go hiking next week, you know, you come fishing. Yeah. And Yeah. And then not only do I feel obligated, I guess, and don't really feel obligated or like um enticed or, you know, because you came out fishing. I'm like, "Oh, I I would like to go hiking." Mhm. Um, so it's just gonna if it was just, you know, me next week comes along and be like, I don't whatever. I don't really not motivated all that much to go hiking. But if you're like, hey, you know, I'm going hiking. Would you like to come? You that probability of me going hiking, which this is kind of example because I enjoy hiking also. But right, um, it could be anything. It could be hunting. Yeah. like I've been in that position have been like, "Hey, do you want to go hunting?" And I'm like, "Uh, I've I've always felt like, man, I've always wanted to hunt, but also there's something about that, too." And it's like, you know, there is kind of that masculine side to hunting. And it's like to not to admit that, hey, I don't hunt or whatever it is. Um, kind of goes hand inhand with what we talk about on the podcast sometimes, too. that, you know, um I guess the idea that I just didn't want to like seem less masculine because I don't hunt or something like that because the reality is that I want to always wanted to but like being able to get comfortable and come out of your shell like right now. So I've been on this selfdevelopment for the last year or so. Really just trying to work on myself and just be honest and have those honest conversations and now I'd be like, "Yeah, let's go. I've never been, but let's do it. Show me the ropes." you know, but for some reason in the past I just would I would just kind of steer clear of that conversation and just not do it for whatever reason. You know, I think a large reason is because you you know, we talked about before uh your father, my father really never took the time to bring us out. So there was just, you know, that never experience just never happened. So we never kind of brought out and taught that. So I get, you know, so we some activities are generational. Yeah. However, now you're in a position of creating a brotherhood and now you have guys that enjoy hunting. Mhm. and making that bond with someone that hunts and them knowing that you're interested in it. That that's that that tether to actually do it. That person's going to reach out and be like, "Hey, I'm going hunting. I know you said you were interested in it. How about we meet here and let's go?" Mhm. And then boom, you know, that connection's made and it actually have something that connection is what's making that final thread from you not hunting to you hunting. And I guess that's really what we're trying to succeed here is bringing in brotherhood and support system, people in different areas that enjoy nature in different ways. helping others experiencing those experiences in the right way. Yeah. Or in a positive way. Yeah. Um taking a lot of the kind of fears away. Um Yeah. No, you're you're totally right. I like the I like these two words. Shared experiences. Absolutely. I think it's I think it's a strong word. Shared experiences. It's like we and connection and connection being able to share your experience and your knowledge and your love for maybe a certain activity with other guys who maybe had been in my position before too, right? I talked about hunting and like not just not doing it or you're, you know, reaching out or participating for whatever reason and being able to provide that network or that community where it's like there's no judgment. It's like, you know, I get it. You've never been hunting. You've never been fishing or hiking before. You don't know where the hell to start. That's cool cuz guess what? There's 50 guys or 100 guys or who knows. My goal is hopefully we get this thing across the country. I don't know. We'll see. We got to start small first. You got you got to crawl before you can walk. But Well, yeah. Then you grow a network across the country. Then you have hunters that have hunted New York State or upstate that want to take their hunting to the next level. When you have if we Yeah. tether those connections and brotherhood across country, we have dudes that Yeah. I'm a moose hunter. Cool. I'm a deer hunter. Yeah. I'm a deer. How about you, you know, how about we come out to wherever do some moose hunting and then next month or next year or whatever I come out and do white tail hunt, deer hunting like never been that aspect. So blending those together. Yeah. And th those communities definitely exist within the sports or activities themselves, right? like those communities, those networks, but they're kind of siloed to just that one thing, right? And so the idea is that, you know, what we're trying to build is that we're taking all of these outdoor recreation based experiences and building a network around all of those. So that way it's not just one specific thing, right? Like I could I could join or I could be a part of a hiking group right now and probably get a hold of 10 15 people and we could go meet in, you know, at the the White Mountains in New Hampshire or we could meet in the Aderondex or go to the Catkills, right? I think that stuff's very easy. But when the focus is on brotherhood, building adventure, having that community and that network to to kind of connect all those dots, I think that's really powerful. And I think it should hopefully the plan is to hopefully get people kind of out of their shell and experience some of these opportunities. And I think that's so important here. You know, I think we're talking about winter to start this podcast. Um, not having something to do, um, not having a hobby, a winter hobby up here in the Northeast is detrimental to health, especially mental health. I've been down that alley before. um where you know just kind of caught up in the winter rat race and it's cold and you get into that seasonal depression you know especially after the holiday season and it's like man there was two years or so where we were really active Paige and I we were winter hiking you know we had snowshoes and we were were very active in doing that and I you and I had gone skiing a few times and like the winter went by so much faster when I was doing things and being active. And you know, I guess I'm blessed in that, you know, I I grew up and I learned how to snowboard at a young age and I guess hiking just kind of came together. So being able to have that opportunity and I understand that not everybody has that same, but it's never too late. Doesn't matter if you're listening to this podcast and you're 21 years old, you're like, "Man, I've never skied before or I've never snowshoe hiked or crosscountry skied or ice fished." Um, I've never ice fished, by the way. got tons of friends that do it. But again, another thing that I've always wanted to do and just having that one hobby, especially when the weather sucks, um, is so important. And I I can promise you it makes the winter go by so much faster, keeps you out of that seasonal depression and like just makes everything a little bit more enjoyable because the winter is so long up here, you know? And I guess it might not be applicable if you know you're uh some [ __ ] living in a in a nice warm environment 24/7. No offense, but you know uh I'm I'm envious. I'm not because I do love the seasons to be honest with you. But um just when when it hits like beginning of February, end of January and it's freezing, you're like, "God, Florida sounds so nice." But um but that's when you need but that's when you need an extra incentives to just go out and do it. And when you have a group of people that go out and enjoy doing that, you're going to be much more likely to get out in the winter because especially the winter because the cold sucks. It's your mind will come up with a thousand excuses from the time you go from your bed to the front door to go out to, you know, do summer in the winter time. Yeah. I mean, you'll come up with thousand excuses of why you should stay inside and stay warm and just having that extra, you know, push ding on your phone. You look friend's like, "Hey, I'm going snowshoeing this weekend. and want to go, you know, that's that's valuable. I mean, so valuable. Uh you're much more likely to get out and go. Yeah. And I think one of the things we talked about in the last podcast was how difficult it is for men, you know, as soon as they get in their 30s, you know, maybe that 30 to 50 or 60 range to find new friends. Absolutely. you know, so it's if it's difficult to find new friends at that age and then the likelihood of someone sending you that notification of saying, "Hey, you want to go do this?" It's probably less and less likely, right? So having something like this network is huge. Absolutely. When you have a group that it's pretty much pushing that. Yeah. Do you think we should build an app?

Yeah, I think we should just go, you know, go all in. Yeah, I I'm putting I'm putting you on the spot here, but like as as you were saying that, something popped in my head. I'm like, wait, what if we built an app? Because I've done it before. I did it for the nonprofit organization I was working at to improve communication and Yeah. Yeah. And we've talked about this before creating kind of a platform of you know where conversation can be had but you know especially as the this grows to be able to a space to be like hey I'm going fishing who wants to come who's in or I'm going hiking who's in you know then you have a group guys that are committed for the right reason right because we want to get out to be connected to nature so that it improves our well-being so that we can perform at an optimal level in family at work uh what yeah you name it uh you know just a better son better uh yeah and that so that's one of the conversations we had with Abram on Monday and he said you know some of your messaging is reallyant important, right? And so I think one of the key words he brought up was burnout. It's a huge buzz word right now. Whether you work corporate or doesn't matter. The word burnout, everyone's heard it. Everyone, I'm sure has experienced it and it probably means something differently to, you know, to different people, right? But you know, have you I guess if you take kind of the general sense of the word burnout, right? I think tired, stressed, overworked, you know, whatever the case may be. And it's not so much that it's not that you're an inefficient person or an ineffective worker or, you know, you don't have enough push or drive. I think it actually is comes from the opposite. I think it comes from the fact that you are pushing and pushing because maybe you're passionate about you know whatever it may be that you're doing or you know sometimes there is just part of that piece of life where you work you take care of your family right you take the kids to their sports practices especially well we both have kids in hockey so we can attest to that um but like just the general facets of life can sometimes just prevent that just brick wall that you run into and you're like, "Wow." And it just hits you and just covers you, right? Just water washes over you and you're like, you know, I guess that would be if I had to describe burnout and I've I've been there actually. I think anyone that has aspirations and goals and wants to improve themselves runs into that wall because that's a good point. We don't want to believe that wall is there. You know, a lot of a lot of us, including myself, I mean, don't want to accept our limits. Mhm. Until really, it kind of forces you to accept them. And I guess what we're trying to do here is prevent that. Yeah. Prevent that massive like downshift because you've pushed yourself so far where, you know, you're just you have to rather than being uh preemptive and you know doing things like breath work and getting out cold plunges. Um yeah enjoying nature, taking time for yourself, taking time to enjoy your family. um understanding the importance of that to prevent running into that brick wall because and a lot of guys Yeah. that motivated and want to strive, I'm sure, have ran into that wall a few times. I I I know I have. And you don't want to acknowledge it. you know, you kind of get back bounce off that wall and you kind of get up and like, okay, wall like here I here I come again. Yeah. Instead of like being objective. Okay. So, we had some technical difficulties there. We just have to do a quick reset. But I want to go back to the point that you were really kind of starting on. You were talking about um what happens, you know, when you hit that brick wall and we're talking about burnout. And so, I had a thought that popped in my head. And I'm like, man, I don't know how many times I've looked that brick wall in the face and I've seen it and I'm like, screw it. I'm running through it, right? Because it's like I see something on the other side of it or I think I see something on the other side of it, but I forget that run through that brick wall, it's probably going to give me a concussion or I'm going to get cut up pretty good or kill you or kill me. Yeah. Right. Literally. Yeah. hitting that brick wall, you know, he could just reach that point. And so there's been so many times where I've just I've opted to run through that brick wall when in reality that brick wall brick is red, right? There's that wall. So that should be your warning sign to stop as soon as you see that brick wall coming. And so I I, you know, being 35 now, I'm much more um aware and capable of looking at that brick wall and being like, "Okay, hit the brakes." Right? And like not having to hit the emergency brake, just hitting the regular brakes and stopping well in advance before I hit that brick wall. Because I can tell you for a period of time, you're not stopping. You know, you're still moving forward. You're just choosing to go around the wall or over the wall or create a door and go through the wall. Well, Yeah. Yeah. That's, you know, there's periods of time where I choose to maybe go around the wall or, you know, take time to build the door to get through the wall, but I think that also sometimes I just reach the wall and just stop. I do now. I'll reach the wall and just kind of just stop because, you know, whatever the metaphor is or for the reason that I'm approaching that wall, it's like I've needed to um maybe I've been running too long or been running too hard for too long. So that wall's a reminder to stop and take a deep breath. Yeah. Catch my breath and relax. Everybody, but we have limits. Yeah. Yeah. And I think um we've been talking about what does it mean to be a man on the podcast a lot. Uh Len and I talked about it. We talked about it on the first episode we did together. And I think the more conversations I have around that, I keep kind of learning and discovering new things. And when you say limits, I think that's part of understanding what being a man is too is knowing your limits. Yeah. And at the same time, a little paradoxical is not knowing your limits to kind of there is a press to find out what your limits are. Um, which kind of makes it what we're saying a little murky, but there are times obviously where yeah, you can get through that wall, but there are those immovable walls and to kind of zoom out and objectively think, okay, this hasn't worked. Mhm. Let's let's try something different. Let's try something new. Yeah. And out of that objective view become a brand new pathway of least resistance. I actually have a really good story that I read the other day and it it's about a fly and we've all seen it before. That fly pressed against the window plane just buzzing buzzing buzzing. I can't stand those flies. Well, that fly thinks, "Hey, maybe if I try a little harder, I can get through this window." And it sits there and it buzzes and buzzes and you hear the the whine of its wings and it doesn't realize that that window, whatever it does or however hard it tries, it's not going to go through it. But it tries. If that fly understood that if it just took a moment, backed up and realized where it was objectively and realize that the door is open and all I need to do is fly a few seconds away, catch the draft of this door, and just follow it out to your freedom. You know, it's just it's it's like that if you're too stubborn or think like the same way or you know, just and like before we've talked about there's a time and place where things sometimes need to be, you know, buckled up and man up and let's get through this. But a lot of times like there's immovable objects where that won't work and you're going to end up being that fly trying to push to a window plane and you're going to die trying. You know, you're going to you're you're going to try harder and try harder and find out that you've spent all your energy and now you're laying on the window sill motionless. Yeah. So I think when we talk about knowing your limits, it's not saying that you know you have this glass ceiling, right? It's that being able to to identify those limits and being able to also take a step back for a minute, identify and be like, okay, where can I go next or where can I continue to push myself? Because really as human beings, we had a really good discussion about this on the talk that we have so much that we are capable of that our brains power us. There are these supercomputers that can power us. And I mean, you could just look at some of the fascinating people out there. We've had really good discussions about David Gogggins and we say how he's kind of this unique unicorn of a person, but the reality is is he's just unlocked his full potential, right? his full, you know, he he doesn't believe that he has those limits. And now you have to read into that stuff sometimes. Sometimes people really do have the capability to just push and push like he does. And I think it's very fascinating um listening to him. But um but if you just take bits and pieces, right, and I don't think the idea of some of the stories that he shared is to like, you know, copy me and do exactly what I did, but like what applies to you in your life, right? And I think that's been pretty helpful for me. And but when you think about it in terms of what we're talking about of limits and what we're capable of, a lot of times we're capable of so much more that we don't even realize because m society's made it easy to because we're comfortable, right? We have modern amenities, we have electricity and a lot of us have heat and you know a roof over our heads and we have 10 different places we can go to get food. you know, obviously more, but that has made us Yeah. A lot of noise. Yeah. A lot of noise, too. Right. So, there's like if you take all of those components, it's like it's kind of like we're it's locking us in a cage a little bit and allowing us to feel that comfortability where it's like, and I'm not saying, you know, don't go to the grocery store and you should forge for all your food. No, I'm not saying that. But like the reality is that you can take some of these like minor steps, right, in finding hobbies and just getting outdoors to actually be like, okay, I'm discovering what I am actually potentially capable of, right? I realize that I do have more abilities. You know, I start running a mile a day for two weeks and then after that I'm up to two miles in three miles, right? And it's like people that do those different things, they realize they are actually capable of so much more of unlocking that potential. And it's amazing what happens when you just kind of get pushed to that sometimes. Yeah. And it can be damn right magical when you uh uncover some layers that you weren't aware of. And uh you know, some Sometimes that is pushing through some obstacles and some pain and um going against the current. But I think when you step back and realize like what you're what you're made of and uh you're so much more than this physical self. You can achieve things, greater things without working harder or pushing yourself to these extremes, you know. Mhm. Well, first you know first thing consistency

is the act of doing something consistent so that you progress in a way where your energy is not over stimulated where you're trying too hard in one area area too much in one period of time. that progression of of progress. Mhm. And

not becoming that fly and having the the means to be aware of your innate self and being like, okay, step back. What am I doing wrong? What am I doing right? What can I do different to get the desirable outcome rather than smashing my face up against this wall or putting my head down and grinding it to the point where I can no more until I'm burnt out? Catching a fly swatter. All you're thinking is about killing that damn fly. You're like, "All I'm thinking about right all I'm thinking about right now is how my neighbor's mowing his lawn in the middle of this podcast and I'm like and he hasn't he hasn't mowed in like a month and a half, right? And like and I'm just I'm determined that he just keeps going back and forth on this one side of our cedars. Um Oh, he's mowing the one patch right now. One patch and he's just mowing it over and over again. Um, we've been in a little bit of a property dispute, I guess. So, he's like he's probably just playing into it. But, um, no, it's just funny. And actually, it kind of leads me into the next segment of, um, obstacles. Just getting to the recording of this podcast today was an obstacle in and of itself, right? We start with the walk and it's like we both kind of walk every day independently anyways. And you're like, "Hey, I'll just skip my walk today. We can start the podcast at 9:00 if you want." And I'm like, "No, let's just walk together." Like, we both like to do that. It's good to start the day, you know, get in the right state of mind going in the weekend, so let's just do it together. So, we do our walk, we get done, we get back to the house, get coffee made, get everything set up, and, you know, we've we keep running this classic issue of like trying to get the two microphones on two separate um audio channels. For some reason, it won't work. Doesn't matter how many YouTube videos we watch and duplicate exactly what they do, and it doesn't work. But anyways, we got one audio wave and we're here and just as soon as we get the audio working, I'm like, "Oh, shoot. I got to get the kids from school, right?" And it's so it's just funny when you think about life and sometimes the different obstacles that you have to um that you have to learn to work with or work around in order to kind of get to your objectives. And I I think being of the right mindset is super important. Oh my god. There's a period of time. It's everything. There's a period of time where I just would have been totally annoyed. I would have been like, "Oh my god, let's I'm not doing this podcast now. Nothing seems to be working right." Like, "No." It's like, "No, it's fine. Like, we'll just we'll go with the flow on it. We'll figure it out and then we'll get it started, right?" And then as soon as we get halfway through this, the um the gimbal dies and the phone's flipping around all over the place. So, now we got to go back and do some editing. And you just said said something really important. you're like, "It's going to cause some cool effect." Yeah, it's going to cause some cool effect, right? So, it's like making sure like perception is huge, right? And framing either a moment or a situation is so important. And something as simple as that, right? Like, oh, so I got to do an extra five or 10 minutes of editing. So, what? And try to muffle out the sound of the try to muffle out the sound of the guy. But, you know, it's it's fine. You know, maybe it'll create this cool background effect noise. I doubt it, but you know, we're going to we're going to work with it either way. So, I apologize to anyone listening that hears some buzzing or humming in the background. It's October 10th and this guy's mowing his lawn for the first time in a month and a half. Well, what another like powerful aspect of uniting with likeminded men. And when you're around someone that is positive, we know no matter which is a difficult place to get to no matter what. Find the golden thread or the positivity in it all. That's infectious. That's so infectious. being around people that can see differently than your perspective. Um, especially for people who are empathetic. So, people with a a deep amount of empathy to sometimes tend to feel other people's emotions, right? Or their vibe and like pick up on it and like consume some of that energy. And I don't think it's always that healthy unless it's sometimes positive, right? when it's positive, you pick up on it like everything just feels it works both ways. But it does work both ways. But the people that have that positive flow and positive energy,

I'm thinking on the dramatic end, this is kind of I'd like to believe that I'm pretty positive, but I'm working towards kind of like a yogi kind of thing. Mhm. But some of those like hippie dudes, I feel like I'm just bringing it back to nature. Like a lot of those guys, you're going to find that they're connected to nature. Mhm. Like the way they are the way they are is because they have that connection to mother earth. Mhm. I would believe it'd be hardressed to find someone that is in a state of well-being and just sees things on the positive side and a regular occurrence that doesn't participate in outdoor activities that doesn't go out and gather the energy of mother nature. Um and if you know that and that's powerful and again you know creating a group that achieves an increased probability of going out and getting outside man it happens. It helps with everything that we've been talking about like all these different frustrating things like because we're in this place of trying to achieve what we're what we're doing here and getting out and our walk. I bet you our walk had a big problem or had a big part of just just keep on rolling. You know, we maybe didn't go for a walk or didn't have um a connection when we walked and just like really enjoying it. we would be like, "Maybe tomorrow. Let's just let's just call it a day. It's not our day." But we went out. We're connected. We were on a a good tune. So, we're just let's just roll with it. It's that, you know, gave us that clarity, that peace of mind going into it. But yeah, I know because it probably would have thrown me off otherwise. I probably would toss the gimbal across the room or something. I'm just kidding. It would be certain. No, I But me I mean and ditto like I Yeah, but have you ever like caught yourself like in a middle of a fit and be like you know what it's not even that bad. I need to chill the heck out all the time. I sound like my damn kids like here I am freaking Yeah. all the time. Throwing a fit over the freaking pencil sharpener freaking not working properly or I I'll I'll tell you it just happened to me uh last weekend. So Wilson had his first hockey practice on Saturday and I don't know why this bothers me so much, but like when I can't find something, that's like one of the things that like really sets me off. And like I don't I don't know why. And it was something so simple. was his hockey girdle and because it's it's very frustrating to not have a hockey girdle, right? You got to like tape your thighs, your socks don't stay up, it's very annoying. But like that some of those things if I can't find something and I'm like but I know I know I saw them somewhere and like I literally turned the house upside down. They were nowhere to be found and it just like set me off and I'm like why? You know I'm like why is this one simple thing as a hug? It's fine. one day they're like 20 bucks, right? And at after his practice, I end up running up to over to Cornwall to play it again. I got him a new set and he probably needed a new one anyway, you know? Like the Velcro only lasts so long anyways, so I probably would have found him. They probably wouldn't have even worked that well to begin with, but in my head I'm like just the simple fact of like I know they're in this house somewhere. And like that setting me off. I'm like I don't I don't know why. But it was it's funny because I did catch myself and he and it's funny too because he said something. He's we were uh we're coming back from practice on Wednesday and we're hanging his equipment up and he grabs his shorts and he hangs them up. He says, "Good thing we got these, Dad." He says, "You were pretty mad you couldn't find these the other day." And I said, "I know, bud, but the reality was is it's not that important because you got to you got a new pair, right? And the old pair probably weren't even that good to begin with, right? And it's like trying to catch yourself in those moments, especially as a father. Like, oh god, why why something so little to just set you off like that, right? And so I used I've gotten a lot better in that mindset, you know? I think less and less of that type of situation happens because a lot of times I can recognize it first. I think the fact that we're running late might have added a little bit of pressure to it, too. You know, I think if we were on time and I was looking an hour in advance, I would have been like, "Okay, they're not here. It's fine. We'll go practice." But I think some of the other pressures pairing with it are probably maybe what set me off. But I would definitely say that being outdoors more, being more active, being more aware of just kind of myself and my surroundings has allowed me to like recognize those situations and not take them so seriously, right? And so what that's done for me is allowed me to be less stressed, right? To be more clear-minded, to just be probably healthier overall, right? I think when you get like in that type of situation like your blood pressure skyrockets and it's like that can't be healthy. So, so like I doing all these things it definitely it's part of that self-development or self-care routine that helps you kind of catch yourself in some of these moments. Yeah. It's that like the pencil sharpener. It's that preemptive um effect of preparing for difficulties like doing so going out hiking, fishing, whatever. You said that's a little easier for you to kind of deal with the stress. Well, because you're more centered. you're completely you're vibrating at a different at a at a healthier frequency because and that underlying stress that could be what puts you over the edge. Mhm. You know, if you are taking care of that or the underlying stress isn't there so that that one little thing that could set you off set you off. If that is taken care of through being connected, then you're a lot less likely to get set off. And I I'm the same way. And I've come a long way with frustration. And it's funny because it's a simple solution.

more centered you are.

Another curveball, huh? Roll with it. You got to take it. We can pause it. No, it's just it's an alarm for my medication. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're good. Um, so yeah, it's funny because it's a simple solution. be more connected to yourself and watch your breath. In a lot of those aspects, you're hyperventilating.

And I've been doing a lot of breath work and I recommend it for everyone. And I'm one of those I know there's a lot of guys that just rolled their eyes and I was right there with you. Yeah. And once you realize what breath is and then I mean right down to religious purpose like breath inspiration inspire is the root of inspiration like it's biblical biblical like God is breath so when you get upset that it's the hyperventilation that feeds into the stress response. You're and you're allowing you're telling yourself you're telling every cell in your body like yeah this is wrong and I want more of this frustration like this energy of frustration you're you are announcing it keep feeding it and you keep feeding it and that your body and physical self responds to it and all you're doing is hyperventilating. When you notice when you're frustrating frustrated pay attention to your breath the moment you pay attention to your breath and realize wow my intervals are very short and I am hyperventilating and that is the reason why I'm frustrated not even whatever it was to get me there situation the underlying reason is because I'm away from my center and I'm hyperventilating. The moment you start slowing your breath down, and it might take 10, 30 seconds, a minute, two minutes, but if you focus on that, you have this wave of like whatever kind of like cool down. Okay, there there's a there's a you know, there's a a there's another route here. like I don't need to die on this hill. Yeah. Because if you think about it too, like if you're running and the more you're running, so maybe you're jogging, you go to a sprint, you get done, all you can think about is your breath, trying to catch your breath, right? And how important that is, right, to getting yourself back to a grounded level. Emotions and being in that same state of mind is no different, right? If you're upset, right, and you start breathing harder, whatever, got to find that breath. It's so important. You are your breath. I mean, everything is is controlled by the aspect of your mind. And your breath is is a critical element to your well-being. And when you realize that, it is profound. especially if you just don't believe in breath or that something so easy can make uh a monumental impact. Mhm. The moment you start getting past those predispositions of what you think it may be, um it it's really it's infectious. Yeah. And uh a lot of times well to rope it into what we're saying a lot of times is realizing that that wall isn't going anywhere and just stop bouncing off it and being like what else could I do? What else is there? or not even

believing what you believe to to question why you believe it. Mhm. to open the door to like maybe there's something here that I I do not know, you know, and that's a that's a hard thing for a lot of people to admit that you're wrong because in life you're wrong. About 99.9% of your time you're wrong is when you when you feel like you're right, you're just a little less wrong. Mhm. And when we progress through life, we just we're just a little less wrong and we're a little bit better at being wrong. Mhm. But to understand that most of what you believe is really isn't, then you're giving yourself empathy. You're giving yourself the space to like adjust rather than being like, "No, I'm buckling down. I'm double down and we're getting through this wall." Yeah. Like running through it, right? Instead of looking for I don't know how many times I've I've done that myself. But yeah, sometimes like ear earlier on our walk, I asked the question like what would it take for someone to realize like these some of these deeper connections to oneself without having to go through hell and back and bouncing off the bottom having for me it was um health issues really pressed my boundary to realize okay I cannot stop I can I or I I have to stop smashing into this wall is there and it's not going away to step back and be like okay what's an alternative to progressing forward and breath was monumental in that um progression my progression the identification yeah and I I I shared with my theory on that too is that it's not a natural thing but we have somehow natural naturally um learned to to basically take um our health problems and not I'm not saying everybody but you know maybe this just applies to me I don't know but being able to naturally take our health problems or our traumas or our issues or our confidences and kind of put them to the back of our head right to the back of our brain where we just kind of It's it's there. It's not going anywhere. We just have learned to live life without thinking about those until, like you mentioned, until you hit rock bottom. And then the first thing that comes rushing up is everything that you had packed back in your head and and it's now comes rushing forward and then you now are now faced with whatever it is that's making you hit and bounce off the bottom. But then now you're also feeling the pressure of all of these things coming back forward, right? And so that's in my opinion not healthy. It's not something that I've I mean it's something that I've experienced in my own self. And then it's like okay you can't keep packing stuff in the back. Bring it to the front or bring one thing at a time to the front and work on identifying it, right? What is the problem, right? or what is the concern or you know what whatever it is that you pack away and try not to think about what is it you bring in the front and then work on identifying it and getting over that so that way next time you bounce off the bottom it's not the first thing that comes rushing forward that you now have to tackle on top of everything else right that you now have to get around so I think it's a pretty I feel like it's a common thing but it's not a natural thing but we have somehow naturally I progress to being able to to live life because, you know, I think we're trying to make sure that we're still having a good quality of life. And though that might be a good short term, it might work in the short term that you may not have to think about it, right? I put it away, pack it away, put it up in the attic. That's great. But at some point, if you put it up in the attic, you're going to sell the house and you got to clean that attic out, right? That's that's pretty good. I came up with that on my own. really good analogy, huh? I've been, let me tell you, I've been [ __ ] at analogies most of my life, but ever since, you know, this last year or so, I've been working myself. I've been, you know, I just kind of come up with these different analogies and I'm like giving myself grace. I'm like, that's that's a pretty good one. Then there's sometimes I say that that was kind of corny, but um it's interesting what happens when you find clarity and peace of mind. Um or Yeah. flow state. Flow state. So, you sat there and tried to think of analogies. Yeah. Oh, you just let them happen. So, I wanted sitting there beating your head off the wall flow. Yeah. Just let them flow. Um I want to go back to something. So, we had talked about breath work and the stigma around breath work and like, oh man, granola eating yogis, right? Like general perception, right? Or that's a perceived public perception or whatever it may be, right? are part of our like we kind of agreed and it goes with what you just said earlier the the conditioning the standard conditioning standard conditioning 12 and yeah so I want to say there's something else that um I was surprised and actually started to put into my own practice I don't do it every day I should do it more often but um I've done it enough where I'm like wow this is pretty nice uh it's called grounding so I was listening to a podcast and I was surprised to hear that this NFL linebacker takes his shirt off every day, goes out and just lays in the grass in the ground. This is a guy who absolutely destroys people on Sunday afternoons. You know, his muscles are the size of, you know, I guess my midsection and, you know, this guy goes out and he just lays in in the grass, you know, with a shirt off and just grounding. And he's not the only one to find. And, you know, you think about especially football players. We were football players and um you know, you think top masculine, top of the food chain, like strongest man that you can possibly be, you know, or try to be the strongest person. Um you know, hard mentality, all of it. to then find out that, you know, one of the biggest linebackers in the NFL is going laying his backyard to ground and has found, you know, um, productivity in that improvement in his in his own life. Um, and then other guys, right, other professional athletes doing yoga, right? And like all these things where there's stigmatic in the conditioning of like this is my image of someone who does yoga, right? or this is someone who grounds or hugs trees or you know whatever it is like that's not true. None of that's true because that guy then goes out and lights people up on Sunday afternoon and it's like damn maybe maybe that's why I sucked as a cornerback in high school. It's better on offense than no other way around. But maybe I just need to ground a little bit more. Maybe I need to take my shirt off and go lay in the backyard. I might have been a little bit better. I don't know. But like it's it's interesting to see why well think that helps them focus right and feel that improvement. But yeah well think about the stigmas that are created around it. It's pulling you away from those natural means. It's pulling you away from the belief that something like grounding or breath work or yeah stretching can have an impact like that. Mhm. It pulls you away from your center. It makes you more focused on someone else, something else. What do I need? You know, what do I have to buy to what do I have to have so that I am a man? When you realize that all those external things and those stigmas are pulling you away from your true self, like then you get into guys that NFL players grounding. And professional athletes, they're looking for every edge. So they're not doing this if they don't believe it gives them an edge. So that's like evidence right there. Something is easy and free. You know, free is hard to come by. There's always that [ __ ] that wants to sell you something. Yeah. You know, there is always something that will improve. I mean, just in that area alone, breath work. There's a dozen different devices. I was that [ __ ] for that [ __ ] too. Vehicle. We've all been that [ __ ] But we've grown. Yeah. And you would probably agree. I think I think a better version of myself is one that's grounded. Mh. Um, one that is focused on self rather than I have this issue and it's their problem. and be like, "No, what am I doing that could contribute to this issue rather than looking for an external excuse to excuse yourself?" The power of looking at yourself, looking in the mirror and taking full responsibility for your actions and a lot of times the actions around you. I mean, you can always find a way to re revert that fingerpointing, you know, because it's so easy to do and so many of us want to. And I think that's like the biggest unmanly thing to do. You want to talk about

toxic masculinity? Like when I think about it, it's a man that doesn't have the confidence to be like I was wrong or um to understand their responsibilities. Yeah. Or Yeah. To or even t have like to take any responsibility for their action. Responsibility. Yeah. I I so many times throughout my life like and I've done it too, you know, especially when I was a child like it's always because my sister, you know, or someone else. But I feel like a masculine man and I'm being my most masculine self, it is the strength to be aware of myself and confident enough to be and to take responsibility for my actions at all cost. If it was wrong, it was wrong. If it was right, it's right. You take responsibility for both ends. Like Yeah. and how impactful that is for progression. You want to talk about spinning in circles, put everything on to someone else, it's all someone else's fault. You're going to sit there freaking in the same place. But if you start taking responsibility, boy, the growth that comes from that. Yeah, we have we have deep grasped the idea of what is it to be a man over the last maybe hundred years. And Joby Martin puts it perfectly into words. It's a hot topic right now. it. So he he pointed out that you know hundred years and beyond you know there was this clear you know um delineation between man and boy right and then there was this traditional you know maybe it's a journey or a phase you know where you become from a boy to a man today today celebration right and today it's um adolescence in the dude era Right. And there's so much and he talks about the danger in that because the dude air is like not understanding responsibilities and it's boys teaching other boys what it means to be a man instead of men who truly understand what it means to be a man teaching the boys the way that it was 100 plus years ago. Right? And so we've allowed that to happen and then it becomes about you know who can have the biggest truck or who can have the biggest muscles or you know who's the best you know football player or whatever it is and that's how we identify you know who's the best man right or you know is that the is that the um picture of the modern era of man and rarely is not you know it's just not and that idea has has really kind of allowed us to degress over the last hundred years from understanding that. And it's great to see this like this kind of push or this ability to of people to recognize and understand like, okay, we got to kind of take the reins back on this a little bit and redevelop this, right? And it's cool to see the people that are involved in this um not running through that brick wall right now, you know, stopping, taking a breath, and looking for the alternative solutions in the way around. I think that's where we're at right now. Certainly, it's such a loaded question right now. What is, you know, what it is to be a man? Mhm.

Did you get a chance to watch um it was a long episode. It was Chris Williamson on Modern Wisdom with Matthew McConna. Yeah. And I think towards the end of it, they got into a really good conversation about um about manhood and why kind of there is this discussion and to some degree there has been some some kind of an attack on men, right? And it's like you can you can try to pin it back to the me me too movement maybe, which you know when the reality is that both men and women on both sides. There's going to be good and bad. There's going to be people who do um what they're not supposed to do, right? Men and women alike and being in there are certainly men in situations of power abusing that power. And I think they deserve every right to, you know, if if if they're doing if they're abusing that type of power, they deserve every right to be outed and identified for that. But unfortunately, I think what happened was kind of like politics. It's it's hard. There's not a lot of people in the middle. It's kind of you have to pick your side, right? And so it went maybe to the extreme where it just started to then generalize all men unfortunately. And I don't think that was the idea or the plan. So I think it's trying to take a little bit of that back and say hey that's that's not me. You know I don't agree with that situation or that group or of people of bad actors. But the reality is that there's bad actors everywhere, right? Man and woman. um boy and girl, you know, uh occupationbased people, you know, whether you're in the medical field or, you know, whether you're investor or in stocks or whatever, right? It's like there's just bad actors across the board. And it's like we don't try to say that, okay, because this doctor was doing malpractice, all doctors are bad, right? But unfortunately, I think it we got caught up into that. And so some of this discussion is now saying, "Okay, we got to unpack this a little bit. Let's let's let's pump the brakes and let's not continue to allow people and men in power to abuse that, but also let's let's not keep stepping and, you know, on on guy's necks in order to make it, you know, justifiable." That makes sense. Yeah. It's it's just a lot to unpack. Um

have grace like on both ends. We try to define it and everybody has a different definition, but like find that groundedness and be yourself and like stop judging people for their skin color, for their sex, for what they believe in, what they don't believe in. finding common pathway I think is like the most important here because I'm almost tiptoeing around I guess the disc discussion because it can

bring up frustration and anger you know because there's a lot of like that's out there that's telling me what what I shouldn't be And I am bi biology

I am built I'm bi stumbling over that word but I'm created in a certain way in the exact way God intended and it come kind of comes back to this conditioning are ways to pull people's power from them and to try to minimize sex is just it's difficult. It's difficult to tolerate. Yeah. And I think it could be that Yeah. And you get into that overcompensating like you know I am a man like get in my you know you get in my pathway and I'm going to destroy you like yeah and yeah definitely overcompensating but also like what am I looking for here? Not being not being afraid to call a spade a spade. Like it is what it is. Like it it happened. There was a period of time where it happened and I think that probably wasn't the intention when it originally happened. But you know I think as men we also have to take accountability for that too, right? Like were there people in all these I guess what we see public or high level positions that didn't call it out, right? And so it's like we also have to be able to as a man be accountable accountable for that too.

Yeah. And not to be afraid to be ourselves regardless of what anyone else says. Yeah.

Fact is that we were created differently and we both have strength and weaknesses. So let's celebrate them rather than depict them and tear people apart for for their differences. There's a question. Hold on. I've written something down I was looking for. Oh, this is a good one. So, what's something that you believed 10 years ago that you don't anymore?

I almost have a hard time

distinguishing or really have a hard time uh what is not different. I 10 years ago I I mean I also went through a very difficult journey that not a lot of people go through and I know we all have our difficulties and but there is something about having your power taken away from you and talk about being a man and masculinity and all this stuff like that definition truly changes when it is taken away from you. What I have always leaned on

was that strength was that masculinity power of bucking up and just being overpowering things. Mhm. And when that was taken away,

it redefined how I viewed the world in profound ways and has shaped me

in so many different ways. And that's really why I've talked a lot about being centered and the grounded and the breath work. You can hear it in my words and what I choose to say

because I've had it taken away from me and I've had to reposition and it was not comfortable it and it still to this day like really hurts and I truly miss that aspect of

of sheer strength and grit and being able to just go and open it up. And that has forced me to really just slow down and that I found the truth and in oneself and that's being centered and and slowing down and understanding that we are what we think we are in a way that you need to be careful what you say about yourself. You need to be careful about the energy that you present and you need to be careful about the energy that you surround yourself by. Um because the power in those intrinsic places, those deep unphysical or kind of that woohoo place. um the unconsciousness of who you believe you are like to actually really understand that is is it can be very transformational and I might have gotten a little away from what the question was. I mean a lot lot can change in 10 years right? Yeah. Especially 10 years. So it's a decade, right? And so if you think of our age now, 20, it's you're going from your mid20s to your mid30s. I think it's pretty natural progression for life to slow down to a degree, right? And kind of get into this this groove almost, right, of family and work and routine and responsibility and like that's kind of how society has laid it out, right? And there's definitely there's people on the outside who don't follow those same doesn't follow that same path. And I think that's great. Like there's no path. There's no right path. It's like whatever works for you. Whatever your goals and objectives are as a person, as a person with a family or you know, whatever you want to do. There's no you know linear path to what's right or wrong. But the people that do choose the path of, you know, that we've chosen of family, of work, and, you know, um, those types of responsibilities, like I embrace them. I love to get right into them. But also, I need that constant reminder to also find that that reset, right? And I talk about this a lot, and I'll probably talk about this every single podcast episode because it's so important. And like the people that we're trying to to reach and bring into Forant Freedom, it's like there's so many people in this identifiable situation where it's like guys are investing all their time to their company, to their family, to their kids, to whatever it may be that, you know, I tend to idolize those that really have a passion and a hobby that can really find the time and the space for that. And it's like if we can help more people do that same thing, I think it's huge. And I think it could come I think it come back both personally but also in the outputs of being able to help other guys in similar situations, right? Kind of going full circle back to the beginning of this conversation. Anyways, but um yeah, your thoughts on that

opening up and

yeah, I think a lot of the stuff that we've talked about

I kind of kind of lost my train of thought there where I was going. That's all re can you ask the question again? Um, you know, I don't really know that there's a question in there. I think it was kind of uh I mean, the original question was um I got a lot of content written down here. I think I asked like, "What's something you believe 10 years ago that you don't anymore?" Yeah. And it kind of spun off that. Yeah. Um

Oh, this is a good one. What's something you think men need to talk about more?

I guess the first thing that jumped to my head, but I mean trying to it's like myself trying to prevent that mushy gushy [ __ ] But I mean, if I'm being real here, it's feelings. Like, I think that we need to be

honest, I guess, when we talk about feelings. There's no benefit to especially like in multiple different ways, but like someone asks you question to kind of just tell them what they want to hear. is, you know, not beneficial. But if you're telling them what like you're truly feeling, you know, it's it's powerful. Yeah. Men have the I feel like men have the um the the idea or the role of sometimes being the protect the protector, right? And so, not not everybody, but in a lot of situations, it's like, okay, I'm just going to avoid it or, you know, not go not go back to that conversation because I don't want to hurt that person's feelings, right? I want to try to protect them. Um, I found myself in that situation with with in my own marriage with my wife where it's like, you know, we maybe it was a microargument or something like that. And instead of just being honest about how I feel about a situation, I'm like, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to upset. I don't want to hurt her feelings, right? But the reality is that that's not helping anything. It's like you got to be honest. Like if you're like, hey, I don't, you know, I think we should maybe do this or we should look at this or what are your thoughts on this, right? Instead of and how you frame it is super important. You know, your tone and how you approach it. But just altogether avoiding it. That's not good because that [ __ ] just then bottles up and then, you know, maybe it creates a bigger argument down the road or something. But like especially with marriage, too, super important. I think it it's applicable in all situations, friendships, co-workers, but in a marriage, that is so important to have just that open, honest conversation when things, you know, if something bothers you or if you just truly need help with something, just like saying it and not trying to guess what the other person's thinking is so important. Absolutely. Um, and it takes it's there's an art and there's kind of an art to it. Like you kind of have to you have to develop that, right? because it's not a natural thing. Yeah. I think for some others it might be more natural than some people. Yeah. But yeah. Well, just a relationship in general, especially husband wife relationship. There's so much give and take. Like I don't know if there's a single thing on this planet that has changed me more than my wife. Same. It has. And it's been a it's been a wonderful experience. I And it's also been, you know, uh hard cuz I mean if anybody tells you that isn't hard, then that that's just a lie, right? Because like it's it it is hard. It's hard for both parties. AB: Absolutely. Then you throw kids in the mix, it gets even harder. Yeah. Right. And other obstacles. So, but I mean the

the benefit from being kind of challenged in ways that others just won't. Like I know my wife's my my one of my truest and most honest critics and she has helped me grow in so many ways. And I always and I haven't always been like I guess open to that growth. Like there's kind of some push back of what I, you know, believe I am. And and and don't get me wrong, there's there's some that I still stand for and some, you know, that I'm like, "Oh, okay. I I see it your way." It takes time because it's easy to go on the def the defensive, right? Oh, that's my natural thing. Your natural to go on the defensive and be like, "No, no." Cuz that's going to break me down, right? Like, "Oh, I was wrong." or you know what I mean? Going back to those feelings, you're going to make me freaking look in and start checking my the way I feel about this. But being able to identify, this is something that I'm really proud of the work that I've done is being able to identify where some of that critique comes from. It's not out of a place of character flaw or, you know, you're a piece of [ __ ] or you're not a good husband. It's actually from a place of like, no, like I see you. I see you. I know exactly what you're capable of, right? And it's like, it comes from a place of love, right? It comes from a place of being able to be like, your wife should be your biggest cheerleader, right? And if they're giving you something, it's because they're just trying to help you be the best version of yourself. Now, if you read into it and it's just all defensive and it's like, you know, that's not me. that you know you're wrong or whatever the case may be. Like you're not helping yourself, right? Like your wife, even if it seems like nitpicking sometimes, maybe that's just a a cry for help without being able to come out and be like, "Hey, can you just when you see this, you know, I I don't know what it is. Um instead of putting your clothes on the ground, can you just throw it in the hamper?" Right? Or if you see the garbage is full, can you just grab the garbage and take it out? Right? So I don't have to like say little things for you to do. And being able to identify those little things that just help, right? Because women, especially mothers, they have so much, they bear so much burden and responsibility themselves, too, right? They're always kind of the kids caregivers, right? And they do so many things. They work and they just take care of everybody. And sometimes they don't take that moment to reflect themselves, too, right? Sometimes they just need to be um they need to be seen, right? And so being able to help and learning to communicate with them and allowing to identify where sometimes that communication comes from is super important and not getting defensive. And it's just a a man's typical responsibility, like you said, to just puff your chest up because, you know, I think I don't know where it comes from or what the concern is. Maybe it's because you don't want your wife to look at you as weak. Right? You're like, "Ah, she can't look at me as weak because then I'm just a weak man and she's not going to want me." Right? And there's probably some natural, you know, I think there is natural attraction for women to really like, you know, to feel safe, right? To feel like they've got strength. You don't have to go against any of those same principles or characters by not doing some of those other things too. Like you can balance both of those things. You can be her strength. You can be her protector, but also be able to communicate clearly, right? and also be able to receive that communication back in a way that it's not breaking you down as a person, as a man, but that it's, hey, listen, I care about you and I protect you and I hear you, right? I'm going to do that. I think that's super important. Yeah, I completely agree and yeah, back to the growth that comes from that. Yeah. of kind of okay stepping back and I guess like

with the theme of this con uh this podcast stepping back and not running into that wall like not getting defensive and having that that standard approach to instead kind of letting that guard down open it up and be like okay she's doing this in a pace of love and understanding and you know we're doing this back and forth to to grow it to be better individuals. And what a what a gift that is, you know, um having someone that that wants the the best out of you is your cheerleader and I I I cherish that and and it's really helped me grown. And I think learning how to to deal with constructive criticism and rather than getting all upset because you don't see it that way, expressing yourself

in a way that's authentic and um comes from love back. like, you know, to to have the resolve to breathe, calm down, and be like, "This is the way I feel." rather than getting upset and throwing out stuff that you don't really me mean and you know yelling and puffing up and all this stuff to just slow down, breathe, take in what was said and then express yourself. this is this is how it makes me feel and then kind of like put it in their court to all to kind of do the same thing translate it. I feel like it's that opens that door of communication because if you do get, you know, in that area that we've been talking about puffing up and closing off like you said, getting egotistical, getting nowhere and it's and the relationship's going to just continue to, you know, have resistance. Do you know the phrase happy wife, happy life? Absolutely. I think that it's a dangerous phrase. I think it's as dangerous phrase as as suck it up, be a man, right? Um, from the sense that if you think about that phrase, you're like, happy wife. Okay, so I'm just going to do whatever it takes to make my wife happy, right? I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to tell her I'm going to tell her maybe something that, you know, that she wants to hear. But when in the reality is that maybe she does need to hear, you know, something that she doesn't want to hear because it's again from that place of love or it's from a place of, you know, maybe your own personal need too. And that's the only way to make sure that you are doing that give and take is just being honest and pure in your conversations with each other. And so that phrase happy wife, happy life, like man, that's some of these phrases that have been embedded into our culture and that conditioning and passed on from generation, like we really we got to break free of some of this stuff because it just implies a wrong sense of direction and meaning, right? And it's it's it's not working. Yeah. You shouldn't have to sacrifice yourself for anyone. No. And and neither should you know if you're a husband or a wife, neither of you should have to sacrifice. Ditto both ways. Ditto both ways 100%. Cuz you're both responsible for oneself, right? And I think a healthy relationship is when both parties are responsible for their own self. We are not meant to carry the burden of others. We can we can be a support and and here and there carry some of that burden but it's not really our responsibility like we can't we can take it away from the husband and wife thing and take it in all relationships friendship I can't help you h help yourself I can't I can maybe give you some insight to further your progress towards helping yourself, finding yourself, but I can't take your burden. I have my own burden, my own self to care for. And I think that phrase happy wife, happy life is and I I completely agree with you. And it doesn't mean that I don't want my wife to be happy. It just means that in in the way that the phrase is analyzed, I guess, is is not the right I mean, I'm not going to I'm not the person to say right or wrong, but in my in my version or my take of the phrase, it's like that's not how I want my wife to be happy. I want her to be able to, you know, um be open and honest and vice versa, right? and be happy in the sense that we can openly communicate and have you know um both shared ideals and objectives but also opposing ideals objectives and be able to to come to an agreeance or to come to an understanding or to understand each other's sense of where it comes from. And I think those same values I I try to put in my friendships too. Yeah. You know, like there were some things on the conversation today that I didn't quite I'm not gonna say disagreed with you, but I also needed curiosity, right? I need curiosity. I needed to keep an open mind to be like, let's get that perspective, right? Because I don't I don't know the answer, but it's like I need to see both sides. I need to be able to see your side, right? Whether I agree or whether or not to understand and have that agreeance on opposition sometimes is really important in marriage and friendships, co-worker, you know, um colleague relationships, anything. Yeah. And it goes down to not knowing to realize that we don't know everything. Mhm. And I I like the way you put that because and you're allowed to have your beliefs, correct? You know what I mean? Like no one should be able to tell you what you should or shouldn't believe, right? But what you can control is how you are able to see someone's perspective in frame without in a way that cast judgment or right or wrong. Right. Well, a lot of us have that thing that kind of goes off like I don't agree with that and just shut off feel like that's a natural thing and a lot of people do the however like what you just said you may not agree to it but you're open to it the curiosity because there's always something even if you 99.9% of it you disagree there's always something in there that you take from it I being open to that and getting into that place of curiosity, especially what we were talking about and and I'm trying not to get into it, but it's deep. It's a it's a convoluted you can you can have full episode on it. Yeah. And and the funny thing about that is like really like in the depths of what we are down to like quantum mechanic stuff

is the curiosity is what helps you find yourself into those means into a deeper discovery of oneself. Mhm. that I don't agree block and just don't take it in. You're not going to find yourself that way. No. No. For sure. And there are some toxic stuff that we obviously have to kind of like step away from because it Yeah. Because it's just harmful. Sometimes people Yeah. Sometimes people in your life that you just Right. Yeah. Sometimes just situations. I can't allow that. Yeah. Energy or whatever. But I think in most aspects when people are especially like us on that like we're both open being ourselves. We're not It wasn't like I was pushing myself on to you. It was in No. And you weren't reserving yourself to worried about how I was going to feel. No. Yeah. And we're both on expressing each other of where we view it and to find a deeper understanding of each other and that convoluted question. A lot of it could be like what in the heck is he talking about? Like our reality isn't created from reality. It's generated from from what we believe it is. Mhm. And getting into that deep dis into a discussion of this paradoxical place. So yeah, um just us being open, being honest, that goes right down to what we're trying to to achieve here. Yeah. And you can support you can support your friends and you can support people and disagree and disagree at the same time. And you actually I recommend you do and you should. Um I think that's what we're about. If you if you want to be honest and open and learn more about yourself, then that's the way to do it, right? And have that open mind. Um if you want to stay in a box then you surround yourself with yes people who people who share even when they think you know you've got an idea it's a shitty idea but they say yeah it's a great idea keep going for it right it's like you're not going to grow that way you surround yourself with yes people everything that you do you don't do anything wrong you know you're not going to grow and you want to grow as a person as a man surround yourself with people who are going to challenge you. And with that, you have to kind of get comfortable with being a little bit uncomfortable sometimes. And there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah. And it's funny. No one likes a Yes, man. Like, unless you want to be in that box, unless you want somebody, you know what I mean? If you kind of want to be Yeah. And if you're on a path of improvement and finding finding I guess finding your limits, compressing those limits and constantly improving and striving for greatness. Yeah. There's you don't you don't need a yes man. And and again it goes in the balance too of still supporting, right? is still having those. So, someone that can challenge you like your best friend should be able to challenge you when they think something's right or wrong. Well, no, in the situation when something's wrong, if they think something is wrong or they don't agree, right, or they think you're making a bad decision, they should be able to challenge you. But then at the same time, when things are right or things are really good, they should be able to lift you up at the same time. They should be able to do both. I would agree, but there shouldn't it shouldn't be one shouldn't be totally lopsided, right? So, someone shouldn't just be totally negative the whole time uh in everything that you do or everything that you say, but they also shouldn't be totally positive in everything, right? If especially if it's something that they maybe don't agree with or they don't have that side, they should challenge you to some degree. There should be that balance and it shouldn't be concrete. No, it should never be concrete. wrong. No, no, it should never be done. No, you're just wrong. Should be able to identify like what those moments are. Yeah. You know, when that's when that's needed. I don't agree. And here's my point of view, you know. Yeah. All right. Listen, we got into some deep discussion here. Let's lighten it up a little bit with a quick uh I call lightning round. So, I got a few questions. Just answer one or the other. Ready? Okay. Um, what's your favorite type of coffee? Like light, medium, dark? Dark. Dark. Me too. Sunrise or sunset?

Sunset. Tent or cabin? Tent. Tent for sure. Axe or knife?

Knife. Mountains or water? Water. All right. This one. Neither of us drank. It's ironical because neither of us have drank in the last year, but there was a period of time where we did, right? In our younger days. Our younger days were 30, mid-30s. Um, when we did, what was your choice? Beer by the fire or whiskey on the rocks. Oh, beer. Whenever short period of time getting into whiskey and Yeah. shortlived whiskey moments. I was that pulls out that toxic masculinity for sure. Yeah. Hard to keep that in check. Yeah, man. I don't I don't think there's been too many more times that my chest has been puffed up on on whiskey. Yeah, we maybe we'll share some stories in future episodes, but it's not going to happen right now. Um, cold plunge or hot sauna?

Cold plunge. Yeah. What's your best camp meal you've ever had?

Ribe eyes. Open flame over the fire. Right. Yeah. What is one thing that's always in your pack?

It's a pretty easy one. Might just jump to my head for a second. And third is water. Oh yeah. I mean that's totally important. Okay, that's the end of lightning round. That's pretty good. It's interesting what you learn about somebody when you just ask quick questions like that to wrap things up, especially when you get into deep dive into conversations. Lighten it up a little bit. Well, it's I mean it's interesting what you learn about one another and yourself by doing something like this podcast and talking about it. 100%. This has been This has been fun. It's exciting. It's pushed me out of my norm. Mhm. Feel like I've grown within the short few weeks and inspired. I'm inspired from you and what you've already accomplished to this point. And yeah, I I look forward to keeping this rolling, keeping this fire burning. Yeah. Thank you. some wood to it and getting this thing freaking bonfire type. Yeah. Yeah. No, I I appreciate uh you know, you you've you've since the foundation, before I even kick this thing off, we sat down, we're watching football and I said, hey, check out the website that I built and you're like, man, I think you might have something there. And so, you know, I guess going back to the conversation we had, that's kind of one of those reassuring moments, right? And I'm sure on this journey there's going to be some things that you'll challenge me on and I hope you do um for the better. You know, I think coming to me or coming with me um on Monday to go have coffee with uh with Abram and getting his honest feedback, I think is part of that, right? It's all part of that growth journey. It's part of learning. It's part of being open-minded and just figuring out, you know, where where do where does this go from here? because it's so green as an idea and as you know there's there's a bunch of people I'm not going to say there's a ton but there's quite quite a few out there you know in Utah and in the Midwest and you know different places and every you know they do similar things men's retreats or um guys trips or these different things it's not competition these guys that I've talked to that are doing similar things everybody views it as opportunities for collaboration or to share ideas or resources because everybody realized there's something deeper here, right? And I think about what we're doing and it's like it's kind of the the typical man's mentality to be competitive, right? To want to crush the opponent and do everything, but like that's not the case with this. And I think that's really cool because it's about the mission and recognizing that everybody does things a little bit differently, right? So some it might be, you know, doing retreats and doing, you know, total holistic wellness and journaling and different things like that or some it might just be totally rugged adventure. And, you know, for us it's kind of like a balance of everything. And so recognizing that everybody does this a little bit differently um is really cool. And of course, you know, especially with in the internet, you know, you start to see like-minded people, right? The algorithm catches up and they're like, "Okay, this is what you're about." So, other things start to pop up. So, it's, you know, I guess I'm maybe just now recognizing it because of that, but um it's cool to see that this is kind of really taken off and people are reaching out about it. I think that's the big thing is the fact that maybe some maybe we haven't had anybody join a side quest yet. But I can tell you by looking at the website, there are people from around the entire country that are repeat visitors to the website. There's people that have put the Brotherhood weekend, the the Brotherhood Breakthrough Weekend in their cart, but haven't, you know, clicked uh shop now. And so like so it's there. It's just a matter of like continuing to have these types of conversations with you, continuing to just keep doing what we're doing so people can see the impact, to see the grit, the determination, to see that we're just not two guys sitting at a table, you know, blowing hot hot air. that we actually we walk every step of this journey and every we live and breathe the mission of forge and freedom as individuals, as husbands, as fathers. And all we're doing is saying, "Hey, here's your invitation. We're not going to plant our ideals or our beliefs or tell you what what to do or what to think." Like, it's totally up to you. But like listen, if you want to find a way to get yourself grounded and to reset and to go back to the beginning of this conversation of burnout, like you want to avoid that burnout or maybe you're in burnout right now, then come join us because we'll help you reset out of that burnout because I can tell you I've been there many, many times before and I didn't know how to get myself out and it's taken some really hard moments and really hard conversations in my life to be able to learn how to do that and [ __ ] If I can do that and sit here and have a conversation with you right now and talk about some of these very difficult conversations and topics, then I can do that with anybody. And I can help those I can help be the person that I needed in those moments when I didn't know or I didn't have that same support or those same resources. And I think that is so important. And I think every guy needs to have that. Yeah, I would agree. And yeah, the position I've been in, I've brought it up multiple times, uh, dealing with health, chronic illness, like I've been in those isolated areas of just closing off people. It's funny how life works sometimes because this feels like part of my comeback and getting out just between you and I like you know we've get in contact more often because of this been out um it's just it feels it feels right. It feels healthy. It's a It's brought us closer together. Yeah, for sure. And it And it's of the more of the most recent years. It's kind of brought us back to that same closeness and camaraderie that we had when we were younger. And the funny thing is with that, we were on sports teams and you just tend to be with one or another more and you tend to have those conversations when you're around and being challenged. Um, and here we are pretty much creating an environment like a sports team, creating a group of people that have similar goals to improve to to hit reset buttons to to avoid burnout. to just regain themselves. And yeah, it's uh I feel like it's it's powerful. And I think the more we show ourselves and be true and have these conversations, I think I've said it before on the other podcast, it's infectious. It's people are going to listen to this and they're going to be like, "You know what? That sounds pretty nice to have a real conversation to open up a little bit about some vulnerabilities and also talking like truth and also talking about things that I enjoy doing and doing more of them and coming together to improve like all that benefit you're going to become a better individual and by that you're going to become a better father, son, friend, coworker. And yeah, that's that's that's awesome. That's it. I want to just touch on something real quick before I wrap this whole episode up, but I like and it was a thought that popped into my head, the point of, you know, when you're younger, you're on sports teams and you're involved and, you know, if you're fortunate to go on and play college sports and, you know, there's maybe 2% of the population that go on to continue to do that. But for those that don't, you kind of you fall off after that. you know, you kind of lose not not that they fall off as a person, but that you you fall off in the ability to get that type of camaraderie, especially for guys. I mean, you can play you go play beard league softball, you play pickup hockey once a week and which I do and I enjoy it and I think I find some of that in that, but it's not the same as when you're younger. You don't have those same opportunities when you become an adult because you're not at practice every single day. You know, you're not gritting it out in games, right? And so I wonder if that's why a lot of guys bus ride. Yeah. a two-hour bus ride and and being able to have conversations and you're not with each other when you're wet and cold, you know, from the rain or you're tired after, you know, coach just sprinted you for the practice or, you know, whatever the scenario may be. And I wonder if that's why a lot of men like dive into their work, right? It's like especially if you're a sports not not every guy is you know was the sports you know oriented person but like if you were in that type of frame or in that type of um interest when you were younger like I feel like you're more likely to dive into your career have you know just as a as a way to kind of just keep hold of those same things right maybe the spirit of competition or the spirit of team or whatever it may be. But then again, now you're overcompensating because when you're younger, you don't have the exact amount of responsibilities, you know, when you're 15, 16 as you do when you're, you know, in your 30s and have kids and a wife and a family and you have responsibilities, they just shift and they change, right? And now you have people who also depend on you as well, right? So, I just just kind of a thought that popped in my head and maybe this would be a good conversation for a deeper discussion on another episode. But, um, okay, listen, thanks for joining me again today. Thanks for going uh on a walk this morning. Got the dog out. We had some good kind of uh warm-up conversation. Um, you know, just enjoyed the time. Um, I'm always grateful for, you know, the time that you give me in your busy schedule. And, you know, and I like to be able to take the time when I can to to clear my schedule, too, to to spend these moments with you and have these conversations because I can tell you every time I walk away from one of these sometimes. Well, this is the second time it's been on the microphone, but every time that we've had these types of conversations off the microphone, I can tell you that has it's definitely a reset for me. like I can just feel myself going back to my wife and my kids or you know my work and just feeling like a man I just feel a lot better right and it's not that same type of feeling that you know I tried traditional therapy before too and it's like h you know maybe that wasn't for me it's not that there was anything wrong with it and it works for some people but like I like to do just these casual conversations it just feels like it flows and was a little more natural and it's and it's great too with someone you can have a hard conversation with someone that that knows you already, right? I think is really important. So, I I always appreciate these. But, um I think the plan we're just we're going to keep having episodes together, right? And I'm occasionally going to mix in some guests. Yeah. We're going to keep it flowing. Be awesome. Yeah. I I think this is this feels right. Seems like the right format. I did do a I did a solo podcast a couple days ago. It was okay. It's kind of awkward talking to yourself. You know, it's like Thank Thank you. I appreciate it. I did I did a couple takes. I did a couple takes. Um there's just something about just like sitting here in my li or not my living room, my kitchen and like, you know, looking at the camera and having a microphone just like talking to nobody even though I know I could be potentially talking to a million people. You never know. But um I do like the idea of having casual conversation with someone instead. Um maybe that's just from the lack of working in an office these days and but uh no I I I truly appreciate uh being on this podcast again and you know I look forward to our next episode. Yeah, I appreciate you having me and yeah, I'm excited uh to keep this rolling. Uh anytime you want me, just hit me up. Yeah. Um, I appreciate you and let's uh keep growing and hopefully inspire others to reach out and and to join us. Yeah. So, that's a wrap for episode five of Into the Fire podcast. Um, for anyone listening, thank you for taking the time today. And if any of this conversation um was relevant to you or if you think you could, you know, uh benefit a buddy who could who could hear anything from this type of conversation, please feel free to share it. Don't forget to follow us on all of social media. We're on every platform, Forging Freedom. And with that said, um, you know, keep forging forward, keep remembering to reset, you know, keep remembering to, uh, to, uh, think twice before you run through that brick wall, you know, think of there's alter alternative solutions and, um, listen to that little voice inside you. Listen to that little voice inside you. And uh, thanks again for joining us today. Catch you on the next episode. I [Music] aha.

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